What is Toyota's response to the Model 3?

Future = Pie in the sky.

A bird in the hand is worth two in a bush.

Sorry folks, I can't buy it. You can't expand the network fast enough to get that Model 3 to go everywhere, and that is what people are going to expect. Like bisco said, you need chargers at every gas station.

EV's have been around for a while now, and they still are not supported everywhere. And yes, the Leaf I was going to buy did have the chademo on it. Even with that I still can't get it to go to Lufkin, TX a mere 120 miles down the road from my house. And if I did manage to get to Lufkin, only one place up there to charge. Mercer Nissan. Or run a extension cord out of my hotel room in Lufkin and charge overnight at 110V. But the range is and always has been the kicker with the Leaf.

Again, the Leaf is the example. The Tesla problem will be the same, only amplified more so than the Leaf today.

It's the same gimmick as the fuel cell (not enough H2 stations out there). The infrastructure needs to be in place BEFORE the product comes to your driveway.

Don't get me wrong guys, I am not the typical naysayer. I am all for technology and new products. I always thought the fuel cell would be the next sliced bread, but the problem still is this - the infrastructure. When that Tesla Model 3 runs out of juice and the nearest charger is 30 miles down the road, you are going to have to call a wrecker. I don't think they make gas cans for electricity... Heck when the computers first appeared in the 70's I was in the thick of it. Back then there was no Windows, only DOS. And before that, magnetic tape, keypunch cards and so forth.

The future is not promised to us to be perfect. You have to work with what you have in place today, and plan accordingly for tomorrow. And with all the planning and so forth there is still no guarantees that what you think will happen will.

That is why I say "Toyota will sit back and watch".

 

Considering the majority of BEVs purchased today are a household's second car, they don't need long trip charging infrastructure in place to be successful. It helps with sales, but GM isn't bothering with it to support the Bolt. The 200 miles just means it works as the second car for more people than a 85 mile Leaf.

Tesla hasn't stopped installing Superchargers, and those 300k reservations for a Model 3 won't suddenly appear as cars on the road all at once. Part of getting the reservations is to see where Superchargers are needed most. Aside: I would not be surprised if car dealer associations in Texas try to hinder Supercharger installation.

Even with the near 300 mile packs, 90% to 95% of a Tesla's charging is done at home. A hydrogen powered car has no such option, and needs the infrastructure in place first.

If you do happen to live or travel in a place where chargers are rare, their will be PHEV options for you.

 

exactly. options are increasing. considering the environment we're presently in, it's pretty amazing.

 

Agree. Prior to the first Tesla Roadster delivery in 2008, the EV market was a mix of conversions and enclosed golf carts. Prius Chat discussion were about how unsafe Li-Ion batteries would be in an EV and how EVs could only be short range compromises to a "real" car.

It is now 2016 and EVs cannot be made anywhere fast enough to meet demand. Batteries are safer than gas tanks by every real metric available. ICE vehicles are the ones with torque, pollution, and complexity compromises. That leaves the biggest complaint being the inconveniences of not having a charging station at every gas station. At this rate, that might be a valid complaint for two more years or so.

 

really, the complaints are just us folks trying to work out how a bev will fit our lifestyle. it's more of a thought process of justification. as time goes by, more tech will slowly meet the needs of later adopters. in the meantime, there are plenty of lower polluting options coming down the pike, and it's the other 97% of car buyers that need nudging.

 

In 2014 when I purchased the second Prius that I am now driving, I was going to purchase a Leaf instead. The Leaf had the chademo port on it, and I had already upgraded my Electrical Panel to support a Level 2 Charger here at the house. As I stated before, the clincher was at that time there were not enough plugs to get that Leaf to Lufkin, TX from Houston, TX. That is one of the places that we have to travel to regularly. Not everyone out there is rich enough to own more than one vehicle. Some folks are retired, disabled, and so forth. I fall into that category. Been disabled since November 6, 2007 and have not worked since then. I am living off of Social Security and have exhausted all of my savings due to medical bills.

Maybe by the time Tesla gets all of those Model 3's out there the charging station thing might change, but I will say this. In the last two years only one plug is now available on the way to Lufkin, and that is through Plug Share up in Livingston, TX. The way it is today, there are still many roads that won't be seeing a Tesla any time soon. I am not the only one to bring this fact up. Another poster here on PC in Denver is saying the same thing I am.

If the infrastructure is in place by the time all those 200,000 or so Model 3's are produced then all will be well. But only "time will tell" and there is no guarantee that every where will be a charger for everyone. Sure you can charge at home all you want, but not everyone is simply commuting back and forth to work. Some folks want to go long distances, and as I stated above, I simply cannot afford more than one vehicle in the stage of life our family is in. Everyone is different and has different circumstances. The old ages still apply YMMV.

I do repeat, I am not a naysayer. I am all for technology and conservation. I have been that way all of my life. Even in 1980 I was one of the first to order a Model X from GM (first front wheel drive with transverse engine design. Bought a brand new Pontiac Phoenix and ordered it from Detroit. Paid a litttle over $5K back then for a new car. Times have changed and inflation has gone rampant. And that has driven up the cost of everything. Think about this fact, I drive a Prius. As bisco stated a little while ago, 97% still need to converted. And not everyone is going to give up there big gas guzzler F150 or Dodge Ram for a BEV.

Let us hope that Elon Musk's dream comes to reality and the EV of tomorrow will finally be realized. And remember this, who killed the "EV1"? It was GM the same folks who are now making the Volt and the Bolt further down the line.

 

Just realize that while the necessary infrastructure for YOU may not be in place, it is for others (such as me).
And the number of people for whom the infrastructure is in place is growing every year.
Will a Model 3 work for everyone? No, of course not, but it will work for lots of us

 

And for the rest, PHEV options are also growing.

 

Well, we will just have to agree on this point. My point is the criticisms of BEV fall into two categories; the valid and the not valid. The most valid criticism is that EVs are only sensible for specific situations and folks. That will always be true. The faulty criticisms keep changing every year. The forgotten criticisms were about how dangerous Li-Ion were and EVs could not operate at anywhere close to the performance of the average ICE vehicle. Tesla showed those claims are faulty. The next generation of criticism were EVs were extremely range constrained and took most of the day to fully charge. Tesla then made those criticisms faulty for Tesla EVs and a nationwide supercharger network (still expanding). The present criticisms are EVs are too expensive and do not actually reduce pollution. The Model 3 and Bolt are making this first criticism recede. The propulsion pollution reduction is 100% for an EV leaving the grid to be the pollution source addressed. An ICE vehicle pollutes in addition to the grid, so the "EVs do not help" criticism is actually whining instead of a real issue.

Honest feedback and correct criticism is a very good thing.

We are past the point of no return. EVs are here to stay.

Let's hold off on nudging that 97%. I can only get a Model 3 after the first quarter-million depositors get theirs.

 

yes, that's unfortunate. but a bolt may be in your future.

 

Who cares what Toyota or any big auto manufacturer say or come back to compete with Tesla vehicle. Any consumer can purchase any vehicle that they can afford.
In regards current limited range, a person can purchase two automobile, first being electric vehicle for its capable range and second hybrid or natural aspirated engine for extended range vehicle. If a person can afford one vehicle, then expectation is the person will do it due diligence prior purchasing.
I hope that electric cars can be adapted/adopted by mass population, so that another technological economy can be built.

 

hi dorunron, I'm a little confused why there's an issue of no CHAdeMO nor a supercharger between the 2 cities mentioned. Don't you folks in Texas get uber cheap juice from wind late at night? With the model 3 having a minimum 200 mile range, & your 2named cities being ~48 miles apart, wouldn't that mean you could get up & back & still have more than a ½ charge?
.

 

for some reason, there are people here who would prefer to purchase a toyota over a tesla, for various reasons. some of them are upset that toyota hasn't built a pure ev to compete with tesla. so upset in fact, that even when they buy a tesla, they keep coming back here and whining, as if someone here could do something about it.

 

The confusion stem's from the fact that I was using the Nissan Leaf as an example of the problem. Whereas the Tesla could make the trip IF I was to detour through Huntsville, TX (Supercharger there) coming and going to have an adequate charge and be able to do the driving as needed in Lufkin. FWIW, the Supercharger network will not work with the Leaf's, only Tesla... Last available Chademo today is about 20 miles north of here in Spring, TX, so still would come up short unless I could charge somewhere between Spring, TX and Lufkin

In 2014 I seriously looked at the Leaf and all of the options available then. At that time there was NO plug halfway that I could have used to make up the range difference. Straight through from Houston to Lufkin is 120 miles. Range of the Leaf on a good day is about 90, so I would come up short both coming and going.

However today, there is now one plug (NON Chademo) that is available in Livingston, TX which could be used through Plug Share which is a different service than EVGo, which is prevalent in the major cities.

As far as cheap juice goes, it runs around .12 KWH through the provider I use which is Reliant Energy formerly HL&P. The provider for the actual juice I believe is Centerpoint, or at least they maintain the lines.

All of the different providers have some sort of gimmick, but when push comes to shove the price work's out about the same. Some offer free nights and weekends, but have higher rates during the daytime and weekdays.

To make a long story short, if the Model 3 was available in 2014 I would have bought it. The way things are today, I can no longer afford a 35K vehicle unless I could get at least 22.5K for our Prius now. Best offer I have had on it was 18K. I only owe 3.8K on it, and then it is paid for. I do not intend to buy another vehicle unless this one is totaled or I outlive it.

 

Well one good thing about the minority of folks who see the supercharger network as a "must" factor in their decision process - one can take solace in knowing that Tesla makes an adapter allowing CHAdeMO to work on a tesla.
That adaptability effectively increases the high speed charge network by a factor of more than 2.
.

 

That statement I fully agree with. The beauty of the Tesla is that it can be charged with any and ALL chargers, whereas some of the so called competition can not...

If I had more money today, I would have reserved a Tesla like other's have done, but my budget just won't allow it. Even with all the diligence I can/could muster.

 

Kind of. There's no commitment to any particular EV, but it's not as if battery, motor, and controller advancement isn't taking place. Squeezing more out of less is a challenge at any scale.

 

When there's no electricity there's no gas.

 

is that a good thing?