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Volt 2.0: Ruess "It will leap-frog... the competition"

Discussion in 'GM Hybrids and EVs' started by Jeff N, Oct 1, 2014.

  1. FL_Prius_Driver

    FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member

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    Insideevs scorecard for March:

    Volt -1865
    Plug In Prius - 7

    It looks like Toyota took your advice instead of GM.
     
  2. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Why did you intentionally post such misleading information?

    Price (sticker without tax-credit) still hasn't reached the "nicely under $30,000" target. It seemed quite unrealistic back in 2007, but there was intense support for that being achievable by 2010.


    The problem was people expected REAL-WORLD delivery of 40 miles, not an estimated value. GM worked hard from 2010 to 2015 to fulfill that goal. They did too. Taking into account the impact of HEATER use (not including that was the problem), the 53 miles of capacity now delivers around 40 in the winter.


    I hadn't heard. It seemed absurd not including them, since the new Corolla did standard 1.5 years ago. Prius has them standard now too, though bi-level. I use the high-beams here in the suburbs pretty much every time I'm out at night. The tree areas have lots of animals to watch out for.


    Cool.


    I didn't say it was. Why is it always assumed "better" is the point of a discussion?


    0.2 inch is slight. What's bizarre is the 0.2 inch decrease in head room, especially since people asked for more. Now it's 1.6 inch less than Prius.


    I listed what could possibly be next. We're talking about gen-2. What could be possible for Volt mid-cycle? For that matter, GM with anything high-efficiency? CT6 is grossly over-powered and very expensive, but it will demonstrate the potential Malibu hybrid has for a plug.


    That definition of "leading" is terrible. Delivering more EV capacity for a plug-in hybrid isn't what changes the market. It's sales to ordinary consumers. Toyota has been working hard at targeting the mainstream market, not giving into the "more is better" belief. They have an obvious plan for how to reach those buyers. I'm intrigued how things will playout for the ones with larger battery-packs, like Volt.

    Again, it's not a contest... and it should be obvious... Toyota rolled out mid-cycle, rather than having to wait an entire product-cycle like GM. That allowed Toyota to make changes sooner. Toyota also isolated rollout to only a few states, rather than having to commit to older technology in a rapidly changing market.
     
  3. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

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    According to the US inflation rate, $30,000 in 2010 would be about $32,750 today. The MSRP of the 2017 Volt is about $33,150 (not including destination fee as per the typical auto industry convention).

    If GM came out with a ~26 mile Volt by using a half-battery they could probably save at least $2,000. I think it's more likely that they would bring out a plugin Cruze like that and keep the Volt branding focused on a higher BEV-like capacity.

    Do people expect exactly 52 mpg in cold winter temperatures from the 2016 Prius? Again, the first 2 years of Volt sales scored an average 93% satisfaction rating in the Consumer Reports owner survey (higher than almost any other car) so overall I don't think people were that deeply upset.... Maybe 50% of Volt customers live in temperate areas that don't require heavy heater use during the large majority of driving during the year.

    An electric car will see a bigger drop since gas cars (even a Prius) can utilize lots of waste heat for the cabin during winter.

    This is an industry problem. The Hyundai Ioniq has been getting criticism about its low ceiling for rear seating. Tesla also went with a glass rear roof area to avoid ceiling height issues. This is all presumably tied to shorter cars trying to get good Cd aerodynamic ratings. Giving extra headroom would require using exactly Toyota's iconic Prius shape and the others are trying hard to be efficient while not looking like a Prius.

    I think they might try to tweak the EV efficiency some more with further inverter improvements. They could update MG1 for better hybrid efficiency mpg if that becomes too much of a competitive pressure. I suppose they could also retrofit exhaust heat recovery onto the 1.5L engine to also improve hybrid mpg.

    Tesla has had great sales because of their EV capacity and fast charging ability, in spite of the high price of the Model S and X. So, sometimes higher capacity does change the market. I think the Volt, with 2.5x the range of other plugin hybrids, will fill a role of transitioning drivers to BEVs. GM could easily sell a somewhat cheaper me-too 20-something plugin hybrid if they want to. That may be a saturated market at this point.
     
  4. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Who is the market?
     
    #684 john1701a, Apr 17, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2016
  5. FL_Prius_Driver

    FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member

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  6. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    They are correct, but highly misleading... to the point of being greenwash material.

    Prius PHV was only available in 15 states, inventory was tiny, and none have been produced since last June.

    Portraying the count as if all was equal with Volt is in no way constructive.
     
  7. FL_Prius_Driver

    FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member

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    Every single one of those points are explicit Toyota decisions. Every one was planned and intentional. This is the result of those decisions. No other result is actually possible.
     
  8. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    What does that have to do with demand?
     
  9. FL_Prius_Driver

    FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member

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    That's pretty simple. If a car maker does not make a car folks demand, some other maker will.
     
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  10. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    Hold on, now you are switching to demand?
    I thought you were focused on "sales".

    While it is true that low demand leads to low sales, you still can't get high sales even with high demand if you don't produce the cars.

    Toyota's choice was to sell in limited areas.
    Toyota's choice waas to stop producing the PiP well over a year before the Prime comes out.

    Hopefully they will actually get behind their product this time, they could help expand the market quite a bit.
    Toyota has a great reputation (among most people). Most people trust Toyota more than Ford or GM, which makes it easier for that group to transition to plugs.









    Merged.







    Nice, short and perfect way to describe why I no longer drive a Prius.
     
  11. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    The point was that GM didn't, as the numbers clearly confirm.

    Remember, the target is 5,000 per month. Without hitting that minimum, production cost challenges the ability to make profit. It also totally misses the goal of replacing traditional vehicles.
     
  12. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    Well then the PiP failed by an even greater margin.
     
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  13. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    SALES of gen-2 Volt, since it is available.

    DEMAND of Prime, since it isn't available yet.



    PiP never had that goal.

    The Prius platform was shared and already profitable.
     
    #693 john1701a, Apr 17, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2016
  14. FL_Prius_Driver

    FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member

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    I remember a lawyer joke (maybe from Hill?) that goes something like this: When defending a case, argue the facts. When the facts don't help, argue the law. When the law does not help, just argue.
     
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  15. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    A way to avoid the spin is to just choose a single question, one that provides a clear understanding of purpose, then keep asking it. Varying responses is a dead giveaway of trouble.

    In this case, it has been: WHO IS THE MARKET FOR VOLT?

    Notice how many different ways that has been answered? No clear massage...
     
  16. stephane

    stephane Prius v owner

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    Sorry fan boy....as much as i like the Prius the prime have a nice LCD display and a nice LED but for me it is not enought at same price I will pick a Volt in a heart beat. The Volt so far have proven hight reliability, look way better, way faster way more fun to drive, more electric range more confortable and made in America. The volt is one of the only car mass could daily drive 100% electric without any range anxiety....if one could only have my v cargo space it would be mine

    I think what the volt suffer the most is so much bad information and need better marketing so people know how good it really is.
     
  17. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i have not heard anything bad about the bolt. i think they have sold one to every interested customer. the rest wanted something else for varied reasons.
     
  18. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Nothing bad about the car itself, but it did get bad political press from those not happy with the GM bail out or for other, unrelated reasons.
     
  19. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    The specific deals & incentives one can take advantage of now are opportunities that can really work out in a person's favor. So, go for it. There's no reason to miss out.

    Individual purchases are an entirely different topic though, not what we've been discussing here. The posts in this thread have been about the automaker's approach and how that plays out with several years of sales. That's related to production & profit, not ownership.
     
  20. iplug

    iplug Senior Member

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    Stephane, aren't you Canadian (Quebec)? Since when did that become the 51st State? :D