1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Body Ground - Frame or Engine Block?

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by uagent, May 7, 2016.

  1. uagent

    uagent Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2015
    12
    4
    0
    Location:
    Chester County, PA
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    I'm currently working through p0aa6 with info code 526. I'm getting a short between the body harness and the frame inside of the car, but after I got a techinfo subscription, it turned out that was jumping a few steps ahead. What I'm trying to figure out is what is considered body ground under the hood - the body frame, or the engine block?
    I have a Fluke 1507 IR Tester set to 500V. When I test the inverter compressor connector to the frame, all three contacts return a resistance greater than the meter range. If I connect the ground lead to the engine block, all three contacts return a resistance value of about 2.5 Mohm, lower than the 3 Meg spec. I measured the low voltage resistance between different points on the frame and the engine block, and they are reporting > 22 Kohm. I know the short between the frame and the body harnesses goes away if I disconnect the frame wires from the inverter.
     
  2. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    18,200
    6,474
    0
    Location:
    Green Valley, AZ
    Vehicle:
    2015 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    The resistance between the body and the engine should be close to zero ohms.

    Use a nut on the strut tower as the body for purposes of resistance measurements.
     
    uagent and valde3 like this.
  3. edthefox5

    edthefox5 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2007
    10,096
    4,806
    0
    Location:
    Clearwater, Florida
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Hi Voltage Ground Fault.
    The frame and the engine block meet on a few ground points.

    HVF leak physically to frame is caused by car wreck damage or rodent damage. Rodent damage more rare as the HV leads are pretty tough. But seen one I think where rats ate through it under the car.

    If your megging you should use the case of whatever your megging. If its the Inverter use the Inverter case. if its the ac compressor use its case. Meg between the individual winding and its case.
    Apply test and wait a few minutes and take reading. Compare windings reading.

    Lots of ground fault posts. Rare the Inverter itself will cause that but lots of dealers will throw an Inverter at it though chasing it but usually blown MG2 windings.
    Whats the miles? Sometimes a traction battery electrolyte leakage will throw a hvf.

    if you suspect the trans drop the fluid and look at it. Suspect meaning the car has alot of miles and original fluid and has seen alot of mountains....Does it smell burnt? Pieces of conformal coating in the fluid? Disconnect its windings and meg them to trans case. If you suspect the ac compressor do same.
     
    #3 edthefox5, May 8, 2016
    Last edited: May 8, 2016
  4. goldfinger

    goldfinger Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2012
    535
    402
    0
    Location:
    Buffalo
    Vehicle:
    2016 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    Assuming your not insane, your megging with the car off. This means the battery contactors are open and your not seeing any faults there. Try inside the battery, other side of contactors. Assumption being you know what you're doing.
     
  5. ericbecky

    ericbecky Hybrid Battery Hero

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2004
    4,371
    3,220
    1
    Location:
    Madison, Wisconsin
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    How did you get to this point?
    What were the symptoms prior to the code?
    Did you recently do a repair? Maybe in the battery area?
     
  6. uagent

    uagent Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2015
    12
    4
    0
    Location:
    Chester County, PA
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    That's the thing, I got all of the HV leads out of the inverter (frame, MG1, MG2, A/C) and the inverter was still shorted to ground. I pulled the inverter and it smells burnt.

    Also, I pulled the traction battery completely out of the car and the frame wires were showing a dead short to ground, which went away (at the frame of the car) when I pulled the frame wires from the inverter.

    I actually suspected the battery first, since it's got 145k miles and I've had problems with the battery in the past.

    I swapped the ATF and it didn't smell particularly out of the ordinary.

    When I pulled the inverter, it smells burnt (I'm an EE and I get to do failure analysis on our products occasionally, I've gotten accustomed to the smell of roasted electronics), but I can't see any obvious scorch points. I haven't disassembled all the way to the IGBT's yet to be fair.
     
  7. uagent

    uagent Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2015
    12
    4
    0
    Location:
    Chester County, PA
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    That would be a correct assumption. I actually pulled the HV battery, partly so it wouldn't be the cause of my headache, partly so it wouldn't be the cause of my untimely end. :)
     
    alanclarkeau likes this.
  8. uagent

    uagent Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2015
    12
    4
    0
    Location:
    Chester County, PA
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    The symptoms I was having were that I was initially getting an ABS/VSC/(!) light on the dash intermittently.
    One day, warning changed to the red triangle of death.
    I got my techstream lite out and pulled the code.
    I was unlucky enough to get p0aa6/526 by itself, without the luxury of another info code to go with it.
    The car was drivable after resetting the code (I read the Luscious Garage post after googling).
    The triangle would set while the car was in neutral, causing me to suspect the battery.
    Last week, the triangle came up while driving (not out of the ordinary at this point),
    so I reset it using my BT OBD reader (Torque doesn't pull the HV ECU codes).
    The triangle immediately came back, followed by a loss of power, the SOC dropping to one bar, and a burnt smell in my car. I managed to get off to the side of the road and have the car towed home.

    As I mentioned above, I pulled the battery completely out of the car because it was my first suspect. Unfortunately, the short from the frame wires to the frame remained.
    I've megged out every connector that goes into the inverter, and none of them have the ground fault. Once the MG1 and MG2 cables were off, I megged the U V and X contacts inside the inverter and they had dead shorts to ground. What I don't get is how that could be. I'm considering doing a failure analysis, but in the meantime I'm buying a used inverter.
     
  9. uagent

    uagent Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2015
    12
    4
    0
    Location:
    Chester County, PA
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    OK, I put in a second inverter, and same problem. I decided to be a bit more diligent in probing for a fault. I disconnected all leads except for the frame wires, since they show a fault in the back of the car when connected to the inverter, but do not when d/c'd. The U V and X terminals inside the inverter showed the same.
    I then disconnected the frame leads to ensure that wasn't causing the issue. Same dead short reading on U V X. At this point, the only points attaching the inverter to my car were the 3 bolts (two on the removable brackets and one on the non-transferred one in the back).
    I decided to prop the inverter up a little so the back bracket wasn't touching the car. Sure enough, U V X no longer read as a short. The frame wires also no longer read as a short when reconnected. Where the third bracket sits, I saw some scratches in the black paint, and some kind of corrosion. I cleaned that off with some electronic cleaner, and the resistance to ground at that point increased, though was still below 10 Meg.
    I'm going to lay up some Super 88 tape, since 3M specs it as 600V insulating, and -18C to 105C.
     
  10. edthefox5

    edthefox5 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2007
    10,096
    4,806
    0
    Location:
    Clearwater, Florida
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Why are u megging the U V and X connections? Those are connected to semiconductors. Those require ohm readings not HV megging. You don't seem to understand the difference.
    The fact that a different Inverter shows same result should immediately alert you your test method is faulty.

    Don't know what "lay up" some tape means. Your repair is going to need alot more than electrical tape.
     
  11. uagent

    uagent Junior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2015
    12
    4
    0
    Location:
    Chester County, PA
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    I was able to resolve the issue using my "faulty" test method. What I neglected to take note of was that the short only appeared when the return HV frame wire was connected to the inverter. The fact I was able to use some contact cleaner in the return lead made me start to suspect that the lead was shielded, and that there was a short between the shielding of the lead and its conductor. I think the contact cleaner was a red herring, it may have simply prevented the shield from temporarily making contact with body ground.

    Since I had a second inverter handy, I took the HV frame harness connector off of my old inverter and inspected it. It turns out that the shield of the HV frame wire is attached to the inverter's housing, hence why the short in the back of the car to the frame wires went away when the inverter was out of the car. So to prove the issue was the HV frame wire return lead, I HiPot'd the connector shield to the negative terminal of the connector from the inverter at 500 V. I got >550 Mohm, so I felt confident that that connector was good. I then plugged the HV frame wire return lead to the connector and repeated the test, dead short @ 500 V.

    I replaced the HV frame wire harness (lowering the suspension crossmember is fun!), and we're back in business. I ran the A/C on max cold for half an hour and drove 50 miles on the new harness and have yet to see a code return. My mileage is up to 47 MPG (partly due to winter finally mostly ending here in PA).

    I might do a post-mortem on the old frame wire to see if I can figure out where things went bad, and do some speculation on what might have caused that, but I mostly wanted to post this to give some hope to folks who aren't (fortunate/unfortunate, take your pick) enough to get p0aa6/526 without any other code.
     
    #11 uagent, May 21, 2016
    Last edited: May 22, 2016
  12. tri4all

    tri4all Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2019
    98
    52
    1
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest
    Vehicle:
    2008 Prius
    Model:
    Touring
    Hi Uagent. any tips on how to go about replacing the frame wire harness? could you expand on the "lowering of the suspension crossmember" I see the wire going underneath the seat and then don't know how to continue to take it apart. thank you.