Food for Thought: PiP a preview of the future of Prius?

Are they obligated to continually increase efficiency? Perhaps it's time to plateau that endeavour, turn their attention to other areas.

 

It comes down to EV range.

In a hybrid car without a plug, series hybrids are a poor choice. In Nissan's case, I think they need a plain hybrid for Japan, and this is the easiest path for them. The eNote can also be a side project to a range extender for the Leaf.

Up to around 50 miles of EV range, sticking with a power split or parallel hybrid is the best approach. These cars will use the ICE on a fairly regular basis, and they'll benefit from not having the series hybrid losses.

When the range approaches the point where ICE use is a rare event, the lower efficiency of a series hybrid can be the trade off for lower cost and packaging on the car. A basic genset doesn't have the expense in money and space for a transmission. Tuning the emissions is easier and cheaper. Without the ICE connection to the wheels, more options open up for designing the car. It also opens the door to engine options than wouldn't work for directly driving the car; like linear generators or Sterling engines.

 

There's still the thorny problem of many people having nowhere to plug their cars in at night...why would Toyota force a PHV only Prius on a large segment of buyers, especially if it'll raise the price?

The Honda Accord Hybrid gets incredible MPG's, but it cost $6,600 more over the base Accord While the Camry Hybrid only cost $3,700 more than the base LE model, that's an enormous difference in price for an extra 8 MPG.....

 

because hybrid sales are tanking. phev and bev are the future. toyota needs to find a graceful exit strategy for the prius.

 

Not only that, but the Camry Hybrid is a thoroughly outdated product.

The bodyshell is mostly a 2002 product (with 2002 aerodynamics), the transmission is a very close derivative of the Lexus RX 400h from 2004, I don't think the battery's changed since 2007?, and the engine's still a generation back from the latest.

Update all of that to Gen 4-era stuff, and you'll see quite a bit better performance.

As far as PHEV, what about a milder 4 kWh PHEV, ala the Gen 1 PiP? Keep in mind that some of the PHEV hardware can improve efficiency even when never plugged in - the increase in battery power can support less ICE usage (and lower RPM operation as a result), mountain descents can result in more recaptured energy (and less ICE starts to help braking), and making the hybrid system stronger can enable higher engine-off speeds.

 

hycam was updated in 2012, 2nd gen. battery is smaller, more compact. mpg's are up 10-20%, not sure about the engine. if it is getting is getting it's lunch eaten by ford and hundai, they need to look at cost, standard equipment and mpg's.

 

The Present tends to want to take their sweet time in catching up with the Future sometimes, especially when it comes to Cars. Hybrids will have their place on the market for the foreseeable future, when lithium battery prices drop even further due to all the R&D on EV cars, Hybrid prices will drop as well making them more appealing to a larger market, especially to those that can't plug their cars in!

Yeah, can't wait till we see a new TNGA based Camry Hybrid with Gen IV internals, hopefully it'll arrive in 2018 with the regular model.

Lithium battery prices would probably drop far enough in 5 years where Toyota can offer something like a 4KW battery for every base Prius, definitely would like to have a bigger battery for when I travel to the Mountains.

 

Ah, OK, so it did get Gen 3-era battery updates. Point remains, the battery's outdated, just not as badly as I thought. Engine got updated in 2012 too, which is why it's only one generation back from the latest (hasn't gotten the ESTEC updates that the 2ZR-FXE did when it was updated for the Gen 4 Prius).

Also, hybrid sales tanking is only a problem in the US, where gas is cheap...

 

agreed, we need third gen hycam. it better have nice styling (unlikely, knowing toyota) 50 mpg's and a trunk the size of the non hybrid. and start at 24k.

 

Honestly, I think with the packaging innovations from the Aqua/Prius c/Yaris Hybrid (I know, they're not the same car, but they're close enough) and the Gen 4 Prius, you'll see the battery move under the seat in the next HyCam.

Also, the root of the problem with hybrid sales tanking is twofold, really. There's two primary markets for the Prius, treehuggers, and people who want MPG. The treehuggers have all moved onto PHEV or BEV products (whether for the actual better environmental performance, or the ability to virtue signal), and the people who want MPG are dwindling in the US due to cheap gas. (In the real world, expensive fuel, combined with pollution laws are going to push people into even mild PHEVs, and that's exactly what the German automakers are building, a lot of mild PHEVs.)

The thing is, the treehuggers that want a PHEV want 100% of local miles on electric, so a PiP-like approach won't work for them. It'd only work for the market that wants MPG (or is forced into PHEV ownership). (I still think there's value in it as the base model, but the premium product should be more of a full-on EREV.)

 

agree, though i do think a pip works for more people than realize. if it went back on sale right now in all 50 states, at a cost lower than prime, i bet it would give prime a run for its money.

 

I've always thought they should have put the HyCam/HyAva ICE/HSD combination in the Prius V. Only 1 mpg difference seems like a win/win since the V is about 250 to 300lbs less. Prius V MPG (city/highway/combined) is 43/39/41, while the HyAva is 40/39/40. You'd obviously get more performance.


Unsupervised!

 

Keep in mind that the Avalon Hybrid is also most likely lower drag, so the highway fuel efficiency would actually be lower for the Prius v with the 2.5 liter powertrain...

City would be better, though. (But, some of the lower weight would be gained from the powertrain change.)

 

Careful there. The base Accord hybrid has features that aren't available on the base ICE model. A more like comparison brings the hybrid premium for the Accord down to $3900.

Toughening fuel economy and emission regulations will result in hybridization of ICE cars to the point that we will no longer make the ICE to hybrid distinction. Basic start/stop systems are already categorized as micro-hybrids, and regenerative braking already available on ICE models without large traction packs.

Hybrid sales could grow in Europe. Depends on whether buyers truly care about the emissions beyond CO2 from their cars.

I and others had stated 'back in the day' that the PiP could have outdid the Volt in sales if Toyota had committed to going nationwide with it. They choose to play it safe instead, and now their national plug in debut is against the gen2 Volt and new Bolt.

Another consideration is engine bay space.

 

Hybrids, once cutting edge, make an excellent powertrain to replace all traditional ICE vehicles. Whereas hybrid pioneers have moved forwards to PHEV/BEVs, hybrids should move backwards to mainstream.

 

Yes, but I think we will also see reasonably sized diesels in the likes of pick ups and SUVs. Full hybrids still appear lacking in terms of towing performance compared to ICEs, but this wouldn't exclude a mild system for start/stop and regen braking from a diesel.

 

There were indeed a number of supporters who believed that. The catch is, they also believed audience was the same. Toyota wasn't targeting enthusiasts as GM though. That fundamental difference is why another approach was taken.

Toyota already knew back then what the next-generation would offer. Saving tax-credits for that instead makes a lot of sense. It was a wise business choice, especially since it saves any need for a re-education effort. The first plug-in hybrid most consumers will encounter will be a much improved design.

It's really unfortunate some people didn't recognize history playing out for a second time. That approach is similar to what happened with the Classic model Prius. Most people had no idea what improvements the hybrid system delivered in that next-generation. Their first exposure ended up being the Iconic model... which proved to be a wise business choice.

Back in the day, some attempted to point out the situation. It often resulted in spin or dismissal. That's easy to understand. I'm not sure how "safe" applies. Though, being patient could be considered risk avoidance. But then again, goals would have to be the same. Clearly, gen-2 Volt is not targeting the same buyers as Prius Prime anyway. So... what's the point?

 

if toyota can sell the base prime for 27k, i wonder what toyota could make a pip for now? and they could probably stuff 5 more ev miles in the same space with 5 year newer battery tech.

pretty difficult to improve on the pip, for most drivers.