Jalopnik: Prius Prime

Let me ask you a simple question. How many hours have you spent doing your own independent analysis of the NHTS? Do you even know what it is?

Same goes for Tesla owners.

 

What is "any route"?

 

Going any way you want, rather than having to stick to routes that follow supercharger stations. For example, I traveled from Hays, Kansas to Hutchinson, Kansas to Kansas City. You can't do that in a Tesla, you have to go through Salina on the way to Kansas City because the car doesn't have the range to make the distance and there are no chargers either in Hutchinson or along the route to Kansas City.

 

How long were you in Hutchinson? There's a J1772 there, and based on the "20 mph" comment on PlugShare, it's probably 7.2 kW. Granted, you'd have to get from there to your actual destination, and hopefully you'd be there for a while, but still.

Also, you could go to the Wichita supercharger, which would be less of a deviation it looks like than the Salina one.

Admittedly, flexibility on where I stop (moreso than route flexibility) is one reason I decided not to go Tesla (there were other reasons, like wanting to replace a clapped out TDI long before the Model 3 would have been available, and the Model 3's lack of a hatch), but if you want to make it work, you can.

 

20 hours, and we didn't have a minute to spare the day we left (we made it to our meeting in KC 4 minutes before we were supposed to be there). And we weren't anywhere close to the one charger there, nor was there any guarantee of it being available. If we had been in a Tesla, we'd have had to leave for Hutchinson a day earlier, and pay for another day of lodging.

 

Series hybrids have to deal with the transformation of energy losses. The Accord hybrid is a series hybrid at low speeds, but it needs to clutch in the ICE at EPA highway speeds in order to keep the highway MPGs up. Once you step away from a pure series hybrid, you are adding to the cost and complexity of the vehicle. Even when it is a pure series hybrid, the ICE needs to meet a far stricter level of emission regulations than any off road power equipment. So more cost in designing, parts, and certification.

The Fisker Karma was a series hybrid plug in of the same segment as the Model S. It had an EV range of just 33 miles with 54mpge combined. The hybrid fuel economy was only 20mpg. Yet it was slower than and cost more than the Model S.

A series hybrid PHEV could work for a personal car. It just needs enough plug in range to make the efficiency hit of series mode not a daily event at least. The i3 REx is almost there, but hobbled by CARB insistence. 70 to 80 miles of EV will cover a lot of people's daily drive. Once ICE use becomes occasional, the lower hybrid efficiency has a much lower impact on overall energy used by the car. With less liquid fuel used, the easier it becomes to switch to something renewable.

There was at least some vocal ones that were upset when it was spelled out that the base Model 3 wouldn't have Supercharger network access for free.

Don't forget biodiesel. There is a chain of stations in California already selling next generation biodiesel that doesn't have the first's drawbacks, so is a drop in replacement. There is also work going on for bio-gasoline.

Then renewables don't have to be bio deprived. With renewable electric, water, and CO2, we can make methane or ethanol. From that methane, methanol or fuel oil can be make.

The Union of Concerned Scientists estimated that 40% of US households could use a BEV of the Leaf's abilities for one of their cars. Increased range and lowering prices just make the cars more sellable to that group. We don't have to replace all the ICE cars with BEVs to have an impact.

VW will as part of their community service. Tesla also has a standing offer for others to buy into the Supercharger network.

And PHEVs aren't going away. Then range extenders like Al-air batteries or even liquid fueled fuel cells could be an option for long trips in the future.

In the early days of the ICE, the availability of fuel where ever the car owner wanted to go wasn't a sure thing either. I don't foresee BEVs replacing all the other options out there, but the pool of car owners in which they will work will grow over time.

 

fair enough, but some of them may have just been looking for free local charging. from what i have read about ev'ers, it's some sort of disease.

 

The Prius is a series hybrid in some cases. When power is going from ICE to MG1 to MG2, that's the very same mode as a sustainer system uses.

 

I was leaving biodiesel out (and that "next generation biodiesel" is a biomass to liquid process similar to that used to make synthetic fuels from coal, just using biomass as the feedstock instead) due to the poor viability of lean burn engines in current emissions regimes, and diesels effectively can't work without lean burn.

However, power-split systems are often called "parallel/serial" for a reason - if power is being applied to the wheels while going forward, not all ICE power is going through the ICE->MG1->MG2 path, some is also going ICE->wheels. (In reverse, or when no power is being applied to the wheels or is being taken from the wheels, if the ICE is running, that is a fully serial mode of operation.)

 

Truth. My father used to tell me about a cross country trip he took with his parents as a youngster. Not only were gas stations not common, neither were maps. The road maps were from the gas station companies. They showed roads from one of their gas stations to the next. Of course, they didn't show competitors. So you had to figure your route based on maps from different companies. He remembered having to go through a farmer's field at one point, where the map specifically said you had to close the gate behind you.

Early adopters always have to deal with inconveniences until the general public catches up and reaps the benefits.

 

i remember free gas station maps.

 

Yes, that does look like a challenge for a Tesla, but eyeballing a charger map at Tesla.com I think it is doable with some 13 kW charging along the way via Little Rock and Fayetville.

Considering how few Tesla and BEVs exist in that part of the country, it is surprising they have this much support already.

I also live in an EV desert, about 150 miles from major highways in most directions. A Tesla is the only option for me today for EV driving past commuter range, and it looks like it will work quite well. Non Tesla DCFC is at least 200 miles away in every direction. I'm not really surprised by the lack of generic DCFC, but I am impressed that a Tesla is already well supported in my neck of the woods.

 

Not sure if anyone mention this yet, but the 2017 volt premier does have dynamic cruise... It's just called adaptive cruise control (ACC).

Nexus 6 ?

 

It would be pretty gutsy to try EV on that trip, there are areas on the road where it is just farm land from horizon to horizon. Some places, no trees no grass no nothing,

 

They there is "in some cases". While 20 to 30 percent of the ICE torque is always going to M/G1, the electric produced is mostly going to M/G2 to operate as a parallel mode. The times that the HSD runs as a pure series is very rare, and then the system will opt to shut the ICE off and use battery reserve if available.

 

I think three different questions are being discussed:

- Is it possible to make long trips in a BEV?

Yes it is certainly possible

- Is it practical to make long trips in a BEV?

I would define practical as being that for most routes you are able to find charging stations within a few miles of your route, occasionally you may have to modify your route (i.e. go through a different city). I think several posters here have presented good evidence that for many (maybe most) routes it is practical, as long as you have some flexibility.

Now for the big question:

- Would most people currently be comfortable or even willing to make long trips in a BEV?

Okay so now we are talking about how we think most other people will feel about this topic, a type of data not easily accessible even with surveys. So we're completely into opinion then, right? Okay then here's mine. I think at the moment the answer is no. I think when it comes to road trips, for most people the priority is to arrive at their final destination in as short a time as possible, with as little drama or inconvenience as possible. Most people in my opinion consider long car trips mainly a chore, something to endure, a means in pursuit of an end, whether it is visiting relatives, going to Disneyworld, whatever. Yes some trips can be enjoyable depending on the time of year, and if you don't have strict time limits, or fatigue limits, and you may even stop along the way for some sightseeing. But is that most people on most long trips? I would say no.

And I also think that for long trips, even the "enjoyable" ones, most people do not like uncertainty. No one worries if they will find convenient gas stations or restaurants along the way, as long as they do basic planning, i.e. aware of distances between larger towns and cities on the route. But the idea that you have to use an app to find one of the relatively sparse number of chargers in whatever town that you wind up needing to charge, and in some cases may have to go many miles out of your way to get to it, hoping that it's actually there and available for public use, and then hopefully not tied up with other cars. And then the time spent charging, which could be minutes, or more than an hour depending on the scenario. And this is not a question of whether you're hungry, this is a matter of possibly being stranded far away from home, in a much worse situation than just running out of gas. No one has to get a tow when they run out of gas. I just don't see most people willing to deal with this anxiety and inconvenience on long trips. At least not now. When fast charging is plentiful, i.e. most gas stations also have fast chargers, then sure you will see mass acceptance of this idea. But until then I think it's mainly for the adventurous and the enthusiasts.

 

Sorry I'm not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with what I said. Time spent going out of the way to get to chargers, time spent charging (or waiting for a charger to open up) was one of the reasons that I gave why I don't think most people will consider making long trips (California to New York in your example) in a BEV. I think that's what you're saying also?