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Featured Solid State Battery - next generation EV?

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Eric Nothman, Oct 9, 2017.

  1. Eric Nothman

    Eric Nothman Prius owner

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    Here are a few links that all point to a Solid State Battery being the next generation for electric vehicles and that Toyota is intending to base their next generation EV on that technology.

    Toyota teases solid state battery to be in production in early 2020(s):
    Toyota Teases Battery Breakthrough; Elon Musk Doesn’t Believe It | News | Car and Driver | Car and Driver Blog

    And, others are saying they will also have solid state battery technology in production within three years:

    Bill Joy (venture capital):
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wired.com/story/bill-joy-finds-the-jesus-battery/amp

    Dyson investing $1B in an EV solid state battery to be in production in 2020:

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/rodadams/2017/09/26/sir-james-dyson-and-dr-ann-marie-sastry-powerful-combination-in-battery-technology-development/amp/

    A123 investing in Solid Power’s solid state battery technology:

    A123 Systems Puts Money Into Solid-State Battery Firm Solid Power | CleanTechnica

    Storedot is an Israeli form claiming five minute charging for their solid state battery:

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/forbestechcouncil/2017/08/07/battery-advancements-set-to-accelerate-electric-car-adoption/amp/

    Toyota already posts their intention for solid state battery to be the next generation battery technology:

    Go to link below and then expand “Find out more” tab just below “compact and lightweight” to see chart illustrating solid state battery as being the next generation for Toyota:

    Toyota Global Site | Key Technologies for Electric Motorization

    And, more details on Toyota’s internal venture group working on this technology:

    https://www.google.com/amp/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1AA035

    Based on the above there are at least five announced competitors: Toyota, Dyson (purchased Sakti3), Ionic Materials (see Bill Joy article above), Solid Power, and Storedot.

    The anticipated benefits are reported to be longer life (5x the cycles), 1/3 the cost, 3x the power density, 1/3rd the physical space, quick charging times (as low as five minutes), less cooling required, and it is not flammable.

    Here is article claiming inside info that the commercialization of the solid state battery is moving faster than normal within Toyota:

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/bertelschmitt/2017/07/25/ultrafast-charging-solid-state-ev-batteries-around-the-corner-toyota-confirms/amp/

    An EV is reported to have many fewer parts (and very few moving parts) compared to an ICE (internal combustion engine) vehicle. So, such a breakthrough in battery cost would make an EV less expensive than a conventional gas or hybrid vehicle to build and operate. All of a sudden China’s requirement for 100% EV by 2040 makes sense.

    As a side note such a battery technology could extend renewable energy such as solar and wind to 24x7 availability - changing the energy game if coupled with a smart grid using blockchain for peer to peer energy (buyer/seller) transactions - where people sell their rooftop energy to each other/highest bidder. It is amazing that a single technology could make such a significant impact.
     
    #1 Eric Nothman, Oct 9, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2017
  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i would follow what musk is doing.
     
  3. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Battery technology continues to improve and there will be many announcements that may not result in product: Hydrogen Fuel: A Clean and Secure Energy Future

    January 30, 2003
    Hydrogen Fuel: A Clean and Secure Energy Future

    Today’s Presidential Action
    • In his State of the Union address, President Bush announced a $1.2 billion hydrogen fuel initiative to reverse America’s growing dependence on foreign oil by developing the technology for commercially viable hydrogen-powered fuel cells to power cars, trucks, homes and businesses with no pollution or greenhouse gases. The hydrogen fuel initiative will include $720 million in new funding over the next five years to develop the technologies and infrastructure to produce, store, and distribute hydrogen for use in fuel cell vehicles and electricity generation. Combined with the FreedomCAR (Cooperative Automotive Research) initiative, President Bush is proposing a total of $1.7 billion over the next five years to develop hydrogen-powered fuel cells, hydrogen infrastructure and advanced automotive technologies.
    • Under the President’s hydrogen fuel initiative, the first car driven by a child born today could be powered by fuel cells. The hydrogen fuel initiative complements the President’s existing FreedomCAR initiative, which is developing technologies needed for mass production of safe and affordable hydrogen-powered fuel cell vehicles. Through partnerships with the private sector, the hydrogen fuel initiative and FreedomCAR will make it practical and cost-effective for large numbers of Americans to choose to use clean, hydrogen fuel cell vehicles by 2020. This will dramatically improve America’s energy security by significantly reducing the need for imported oil, as well as help clean our air and reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

    This predates my Prius ownership but at the time, I already knew high-pressure, hydrogen was what we call 'a hard problem.' I also knew it was political pay-back, not solid engineering, against Al Gore.

    The hard part of a solid state battery is the density on either side of electrolyte is likely to have a change in physical dimensions. It needs to be designed to handle these dimensional changes with each charge-discharge cycle. This is not impossible, just what we call 'a hard problem.'

    Now if we start to see solid-state batteries in consumer grade goods like cell-phones, laptops, RC models, I'll gain confidence. If it works 'small', it can probably scale.

    Bob Wilson
     
  4. RCO

    RCO Senior Member

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    Call me sceptical, but I'd recommend taking a good pinch of salt with such out of the blue tech announcements. I believe it would be unwise to speculate with either side in this debate until things actually start to happen.
     
  5. 3PriusMike

    3PriusMike Prius owner since 2000, Tesla M3 2018

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    With specs like that I know exactly what it is made out of:
    2 parts Unobtanium and one part Impossibilium

    Mike
     
  6. RobH

    RobH Senior Member

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    I remember the first Arpanet node computers with core memories. These were explosion hardened devices with big eyehooks to mount the device on springs. In order to harden the core memories, they were set in epoxy. Turns out that core memories physically move when they change state, and the epoxy interfered with that movement. Solution was to cycle the memory as the epoxy hardened. That provided enough wiggle room for the cores to operate normally.
     
  7. RCO

    RCO Senior Member

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    Oh yes, I remember being shown some, probably post ARPANET, on a small bank during a software engineering course in London. No, I didn't make the cut, sigh!

    Idea was to have air traffic controllers design ATC software thereby avoiding the inherent glitches which non-ATC engineers would not be aware of. Happens a lot, apparently!
     
  8. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I used to speculate that software programming should require sitting in a chair with motor powered wheels controlled by a computer running software the candidate wrote. The candidate would have to navigate a normal office but I soon realized there would be too many injuries and possible fatalities:
    [​IMG]

    Bob Wilson
     
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  9. pilotgrrl

    pilotgrrl Senior Member

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    I remember seeing core memory at the Computer Museum when it was still in Boston.

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
  10. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    yea - after hearing the next great thing is just around the corner for over 2 decades . . . . one begins to realize the only thing that's just around the corner, is the next corner.
    :D
    .
     
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  11. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i thought there was a rainbow in the sky.(n)
     
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  12. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i thought there was a rainbow in the sky.(n)
     
  13. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Easy, the servers are running slow - running slow - running slow -

    & yes there is a rainbow, just don't bother trying to find a pot of gold at the edge.
    .
     
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  14. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    just a another cup of coffee and a piece of pie.
     
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  15. farmecologist

    farmecologist Senior Member

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    I usually take announcements like these with a grain of salt too..

    However, isn't Toyota infamously conservative about just about everything? I find it mildly entertaining that many of you are instantly writing this off... but Toyota isn't. :whistle:
     
  16. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I'm more interested in seeing consumer grade versions of this battery. Better still, a datasheet and application notes for such batteries.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  17. 3PriusMike

    3PriusMike Prius owner since 2000, Tesla M3 2018

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    A conservative company would not release a new technology like this. Would version 1.0 of something like this show up first in cars expected to last at least 10 years and come with a 100K or 150K mile warranty?
    No. you'd see it first in products that are cheaper and less risky, such as power tools, cell phones and other consumer products where there is less risk.

    Mike
     
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  18. RonMc5

    RonMc5 Member

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    I still have some core memory in my now unused spares storage site. (Also 3 sizes of floppy disks, and a bunch of programs on paper tape. If I look hard enough I'd probably find programs on IBM cards (at RCA we called them EAM cards for obvious reasons).
     
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  19. RCO

    RCO Senior Member

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    On my last Service posting (not able to say where) they were scraping some old equipment that used 12" floppy disks. Sadly, I was unable to acquire any, but the computers were just thrown away. I heard that the museums were uninterested.
     
  20. GasperG

    GasperG Senior Member

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    This may be true, and we probably won't see new kind of battery in a mass produced car in 2020, but we may see testing of new battery in low volume production car, such as Mirai or first gen Prius in Japan only. We must understand that Toyota is a car company and they are developing battery for this purpose, I don't think they will test it in power tools or cell phones.

    Toyota solid electrolyte dates back in 2006, they had a working prototype battery in 2014 (kickboard) in 2016 they published a breakthrough in power density at room temperature, things go slow, but on the other hand time flies.

    What I find interesting is that Toyota is one of the rare car companies that put a lot of research in battery technology a decade ago, the irony is they did this to improve their hybrids but in the end they could end up with class leading EV battery or even grid storage battery.
     
    #18 GasperG, Oct 12, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
  21. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    IMHO like Silicon Semiconductors, lithium metal hydride whether polymer (gel) or liquid electrolyte batteries have a lot of life and future improvements in them. Sodium, air, and solid state technologies are possible futures. I don't think any really will win near term. Sure toyota may put a solid state battery in a car soon, but odds are against this being a quick winner.

    We don't really know what is in Toyota's battery, but I am encouraged by the superionic technology from tokyo institute of technology which has these things operating well down to -30 C. I believe these are probably based on some of their research. SolidPower started with ARPA-E money and now has cash from A123 (owned by Wanxiang America). My sentimental favorite on the breakthroughs to commercialization are Alkali Glass batteries developed by Goodenough and Braga. Its pretty cool that the professor that helped invent lithium batteries and RAM is still going at 94 years old and might contribute to the next leap in the research. The Beguiling Promise Of John Goodenough's New Battery Technology


    I prefer to evaluate the technologies outside of politics. -
    Did you know al gore's pngv was mainly based on highly efficient and extremely expensive hybrid diesel technology that would not pass epa emissions standards. The tech to make it (clean) would make the beasts more expensive required ultra low sulfur diesel that was not available across the entire US until 2010. PNGV also invested in hydrogen and fuel cells.

    Not to get too much into the history lesson, but CARB and the auto makers (toyota, Honda, GM, Ford) pushed the hydrogen car initiative. Freedom car also included the electronics needed for phevs and bevs.

    In 2007 DOE was supporting plug-in cars and higher CAFE standards, less than 5 years after freedom car ;-) Additionally Gas prices even when adjusted for inflation had gone up.

    That diesel hybrid pngv might have finally had low emissions in 2010 like the tesla roadster, leaf, and volt, but it still does not look like promising technology. VW and the a handful of other companies have made a lot more progress than pngv would have by this date. VW's XL1 is a technology study of pngv, and it doesn't look close to being able to be put in a high volume seller. Freedom Cars hydrogen tanks and fueling issues seem to be solved, but are not nearly as cost effective as the tesla model 3, volt, i3, or prius prime. NO PGNV was not killed because of a political vendetta, but it did take the government a long time to learn from the mistakes of the program, and freedom car made many of the same mistakes.

    Looking forward all those cars will do better with higher density and lower cost batteries. Solid state may come, but is not necessary.

    My guess is lithium polymer is good enough for phones, but these things will be put in high end laptops or tablets first. My guestimate on timeline is 10 years for it making it into a volume car. Maybe toyota will get it in an electric mirai in 2022, but I doubt they would put it in a volume seller.
     
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  22. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    A good summary: Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles - Wikipedia

    Those cars could have been built and on the road in 2002 and diesels were sold in 2002:
    Fuel Economy

    In contrast, a political decision left the fuel efficient market to Honda and Toyota. So in 2005, I bought a used, 2003 Prius with 49,000 miles:
    [​IMG]
    First drive home, 800 miles, and by the time I reached Huntsville, I knew I could get 52 MPG anytime I wanted.

    When asserting something about past technology, it is best to keep everything including emissions and fuel standards in the same time range. Comparing 2001-03 diesel technology to 2015-2017 emissions standards suggests trying to excuse a political decision when the abandoned technology was there ... snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. A familiar practice by some Presidents.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #20 bwilson4web, Oct 12, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2017
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