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2.9V Diff between 12V in aft compartment and engine room

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by Pinback, Oct 27, 2017.

  1. Pinback

    Pinback Member

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    G'day All,
    I have a 2009 Touring Prius. Using my trusty dusty Fluke Multi Meter I have measured the voltage in the aft compartment between where the negative cable connects to the frame and the positive terminal of the battery and I get 12.3 to 12.65 depending on the day of the week and the PTM. But in the engine room at the main distribution block in the port side fuse panel (again referenced to the frame) I get a pretty consistently 2.9 V lower reading.

    Is that normal?

    I thought those two points were nearly a direct link other than a fuse and some connectors.

    Thanks for any insights y'all can provide.

    Pinback
     
  2. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    I don't think so. I think I've noticed slight differences at most, though I've done that double check very rarely, maybe just once, since it's more hassle digging down to the battery itself. I had one or two tenths variation at most, and have an foggy recollection that it was actually lower (slightly) at the battery, which seemed improbable.
     
  3. edthefox5

    edthefox5 Senior Member

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    That’s not right. Your not measuring correctly somewhere.

    Battery. Post to post
    Jump. Charge tab under red plastic to strut tower nut right above black fuse box
     
  4. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    and make sure you have a good ground in the engine bay.
     
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  5. jerrymildred

    jerrymildred Senior Member

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    Agreed. Are you measuring through paint when you check it up front?
     
  6. Sam Spade

    Sam Spade Senior Member

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    An assumption that may not be true.

    There also could be a bad connection somewhere; typically where the negative battery cable is connected to the frame.
     
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  7. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    This was the cause of some failures to start on a previous car of mine. In that particular case, a mechanic had disconnected a ground strap to the engine block during work, then failed to properly reconnect it. The bolt had been put through the tab and given enough turns for the theads to catch, but then never even hand-tightened, let alone wrench tightened. The intermittent connection worked most of the time, but not late on a Saturday night four hundred miles from home. Though it took a couple more recurrences before it was finally identified.

    If OP has this general problem, the particulars will likely be different. There are many ways to create this general type of problem.
     
    #7 fuzzy1, Oct 28, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2017
  8. 05PreeUs

    05PreeUs Senior Member

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    First off, unless there is a meaningful electrical load on the system, a "12 volt" measurement ANYWHERE should be nearly the same as between the B+ and B- terminals of the battery; anything else indicates the measurement was not performed correctly (not a well grounded object, etc). The allowed difference between measured voltage at the battery and anywhere else - Power-to-Ground, is 0.10V.

    With a circuit under load (headlight, etc) drawing a few amps, the allowed voltage difference increases to 0.50V.

    The only way to know where the problem might be, if there is greater differential than 0.50V, is to take the ground of the meter, connect it securely to the Battery (-) terminal and start measuring. Allowable difference on the Ground side is 0.30V and Positive is 0.20V; yielding a TOTAL of 0.2 + 0.3 = 0.50V.
     
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  9. Sam Spade

    Sam Spade Senior Member

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    SIGH.
    NO.....while that might be the likely cause of an incorrect reading, it is not the ONLY cause.
    There actually could be a problem that needs to be fixed.
     
  10. 05PreeUs

    05PreeUs Senior Member

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    Not.

    I was VERY specific, under NO LOAD conditions, there is "12v" EVERYWHERE that is battery connected, PERIOD. I have done these tests thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of times and the only exception is when you are not testing power or ground circuits or the circuit is under a load.
     
  11. Sam Spade

    Sam Spade Senior Member

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    And because you have never seen it, that means it does not exist.

    NOT yourself.
     
  12. 05PreeUs

    05PreeUs Senior Member

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    Actually it does.

    Time to educate yourself on proper use of a meter and the interaction between voltage (potential) and work (current flow).
     
  13. Sam Spade

    Sam Spade Senior Member

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    Actually it does NOT.
    Unless you are referring to your posts indicating that you have an inflated ego problem.

    And I've got plenty of "education" thank you.

    50 years as an Electrical Engineering Technician and 20 or so years in IS and a few years at Bell Labs probably means I know how voltage and current and meters work.......probably.

    Just stop please.
     
  14. 05PreeUs

    05PreeUs Senior Member

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    Then go back to school.

    Let's review, since you refuse to educate yourself, I will do it for you... kids now-a-days, geeze.

    To set the stage for everyone, and I repeat, this was VERY specific and is a no-load condition.

    Have you heard of "Ohm's Law"? I guess not, because you fail to realize that on ANY connected circuit, the voltage MUST be the same everywhere. How? Easy, because V = I * R, or V = C * R; as in Voltage drop = Current * Resistance.

    Now, the voltage drop is equal to exactly and only zero when amps is Zero (no-load).

    As, by definition, there is ZERO voltage drop, the voltage measurement MUST be exactly the same throughout the circuit.

    Anyone who cannot understand this, or argues with it, requires education.

    You do not need an advanced degree to know this, it is Physics 101 and a fact of every-day life.
     
  15. 05PreeUs

    05PreeUs Senior Member

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    BTW, someone is going to say that if the resistance is *high enough* it can/will cause a bad reading. It will not and here is why.

    Volt (drop) = Current * Resistance

    V = 0*1 ohm = 0
    V = 0*10 ohms = 0
    V = 0*100 ohms = 0
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    V = 0*1x10^24 ohms is still 0
     
  16. Sam Spade

    Sam Spade Senior Member

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    Self serving rants ignored.

    In order for a meter to GET a reading, some current must flow.

    Bye.
     
  17. Pinback

    Pinback Member

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    G'day Mates,
    I am the original poster in this thread. Sorry to be out of touch for a while I have been dealing with a family medical situation that distracted me from electrical weirdness aboard the Darkstar.

    What I found when I made measurements over the last week before and after drives during warmer weather when the car had been in the sun (external temps in upper 70s and low 80s) and in the mornings when the temp was in the mid 60s was that there was 50mV or less in the measurements between the two measurement points.So the issue _seems_ to have resolved itself but I will keep an eye a volt meter on it. I have a suspicion it will return. During all those measurements the voltage would range from 11.9 to 13.54 volts when the system was in the OFF - not ready state. Typically there would be a doom light on and usually the cargo bay convenience light would be on too. That range of voltages seems pretty typical to me for 12V lead acid batteries in automotive/marine applications.

    I should describe specifically where/how I was making the measurement since that has become a subject of considerable discussion. First off I always look for clean bare metal as a place to connect the probe and make sure the probes are snug in the meter. I kept the meter in manual range select just to avoid any confusion. In the aft compartment at the battery I made the measurements between the terminals and also between the positive terminal and the point on the chassis where the negative cable connects to the hull/chassis as well as a few measurements between the positive terminal and several random unpainted bright and shiny bolts into the chassis since one of my first suspicions was a poor ground connection of some sort. Typically there would be a 0-50mV (0.05V) difference between between these measurements which could be due to noise. In the engine room I measured between the jump post under the red cap in the fuse/relay box and the frame bolt on the post just above that box. Again, in the engine room I tried to find several ground points to try for measurements and again there was little to no differences among the engine room measurements.

    In the past, meaning Sept to Oct of this year (currently Nov 19), I found that the measurements in the aft compartment and the engine room were typically self consistent. However, I was consistently seeing a difference between the two compartments that I could not explain. I have been suspecting that there is some corrosion on one of the connections that I have not found yet or a loose connector. But those things don't typically fix themselves. So it is a mystery. There is a moderate amount of vibration in automotive applications so perhaps I have a damaged cable that was barely making connection but now is making connection due to the vibration.

    I work in an electronics shop that supports many laboratories with electrical repairs on various types of instrumentation and equipment used in all areas of biology and other sciences. I have been doing this for 12 years and before that was doing medical device designs and regulatory affairs. I have been working with electronics since I was knee high to a delta function so I hope I know how to measure voltage.

    I'll let y'all know if the issue reoccurs. For now I am preparing to work on some cooling system issues.

    Pinback
     
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  18. edthefox5

    edthefox5 Senior Member

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    Take the battery post clamps off and with a piece of sandpaper clean the posts real good. Then lubricate with synthetic grease.
    Do the same where the ground is bolted to the chassis. Sand spot off chassis where the ground is bolted to and sand the ground eyelet. Grease.

    Tighten up the nut on the positive jump point that holds the vertical tab the jump lead grabs onto in the front plastic fuse box. Make sure the battery is disconnected while wrenching on that nut.

    Btw, never measured it but there probably is a tiny voltage drop from front to back.
     
  19. valde3

    valde3 Senior Member

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    Another possible bad connection point is where the ring terminal is crimped to battery negative cable.
     
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  20. Sam Spade

    Sam Spade Senior Member

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    I know that you won't like any disagreement with your suggestions but...............

    Unless it is special conductive grease, one should NEVER put grease on the conducting surfaces of an electrical connector.
    Smear it all around the outside if you wish but NEVER on the mating surfaces.

    The one exception to that is the connector pins that actually BITE into the mating flat surface and thus penetrate the grease.
    But even then it is not a really good idea if high currents are involved.
     
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