Featured Akio Toyoda looking for half of sales from electric powered vehicles

Not casting stones, just the Prius Prime charge time is dependent on more factors:

• ~6.4 kWh to fully charge Prime

	EVSE	Prime @8A	Prime @12A	Prime @16A (max L2)
1	120 VAC	0.96 kW (6:40 hh:mm)	1.4 kW (4:35 hh:mm)	*
2	210 VAC			3.4 kW (1:52 hh:mm)
3	240 VAC			3.8 kW (1:40 hh:mm)

• There are 120VAC, 20A circuits that could support 16A if the EVSE pilot signal worked. But most 120 VAC EVSE only support a 12A pilot signal.
• When using an ordinary L2 charger, I multiply the charge needed percent by 2 hours to set my charge timer. When it goes off, time to walk to the car.

Bob Wilson

 

A liquid cooled battery needs substantially less cooling air because the radiator can be much smaller. It also allows strange battery configuration like the Volt "T". However, air cooled can be significantly lighter.

My drag power vs mph curves indicate at low speeds, Toyota is using a fraction of the power seen at higher speeds. I think 2 seconds could be shaved off the 0-60 time with a software change.

Bob Wilson

 

the race is on again, musk v toyota!

 

My understanding is this was a 'proof of concept' and not a product anyone can order. So how much do they go for?

Have they booked any other orders?

Bob Wilson

 

Toyota’s Heavy-Duty Fuel Cell Truck Finally Hits the Road | Trucks.com

The custom-built prototype will haul imported Toyota parts from the twin ports of Los Angeles and Long Beach to warehousing and distribution operations in Southern California, some as many as 100 miles away. The program, which Toyota is calling “Project Portal,” will run indefinitely starting Oct. 23.

The test is designed to develop operating cost and reliability data to support Toyota’s contention that fuel cell electric trucks are an economically feasible alternative to both standard diesel drayage trucks and the new crop of battery-electric trucks just entering the market.

I needed to lookup a term.

Drayage is defined as the transport of goods over a short distance in the shipping industry and logistics industry. Drayage is often part of a longer overall move, such as from a ship to a warehouse. Some research defines it specifically as "a truck pickup from or delivery to a seaport, border point, inland port, or intermodal terminal with both the trip origin and destination in the same urban area". Port drayage is the term used when describing short hauls from ports and other areas to nearby locations. Drayage is a key aspect of the transfer of shipments to and from other means of transportation. The term drayage is also used for the fee paid for such services.

 

It is a simple comparison of the pros vs cons for the cooling types.

Air cooling is cheaper and lighter, but the pack is bulkier for better air flow and it isn't as efficient at cooling, nor could you precondition the battery for efficient charging with it. I think the lower cost alone is enough of a reason to use it in PHEVs with batteries along the size of what the Prime, Energis, and Ioniq have.

With larger packs and longer EV ranges, the cost of liquid cooling becomes worthwhile in those PHEVs.

The question I have is if air cooling is adequate for a BEV like the Ioniq. The Leaf had issues early on, which appears to have been fixed by the change in battery chemistry, but it also had a passive air cooling system; no fans.

I believe it was developed as part of the Ford partnership for a truck hybrid. Ford decided a parallel system was a better tool for a truck, but we won't know how the Multi-Stage will do in a truck until we have one.

 

I was quoting the estimates for liquid cooled packs costs, which are less expensive today. Nissan uses an air cooled/electrically heated pack in the leaf and they seem to be saying it works fine on 50 kw L3 chargers. The 2018 version may work up to 150 kw. Still if you go to a large pack, buying less expensive batteries that need better temperature management, even after adding the liquid conditioning system, the pack is less expensive (assuming you want it to last at least 10 years, you can go wonderfully inexpensive air cooled that will die in a few years). The prime pack seems to work fine, but my guess is its charge rate in hot weather can't be that high. We know nissan's first chemistry suffered without active liquid conditioning, I have no idea on the current leaf other than it is improved. I am not willing to make a prediction on the price per pack of air cooled batteries that can be fast charged. Toyota may already have them at a low enough price.

The prime's pack AFAIK (could be wrong sources) is 8.8 kwh and 265 lbs. The volts 18.5 kwh pack is 415 lbs (again figures could be wrong) or may be including different stuff. That makes the liquid cooled pack lighter per unit energy - 22.4 lbs/kwh versus 30.1 lbs/kwh. The tesla model 3 pack long range is about 13 lbs/kwh. Using air cooled though means you don't need to check the coolant level or replace it. I believe Tesla recommends changing the battery coolant every 4 years or 50,000 miles.

That just might be battery sizing for acceleration. The reason the tesla roadster got a 53 kwh pack wasn't for range, that was the smallest pack that could provide the power they wanted reliably. Now toyota could have used their hybrid batteries which have more power for the same energy, but I believe those need a larger buffer of state of charge. As the batteries get better their power density will improve. It also may be that toyota did not upgrade motors and controllers as much from the normal prius, since that was the higher volume car. The prime's main selling point is low price for phev versus the clarity and volt, although there will be some that prefer the primes form factor or that its a toyota.

 

what was it musk said about fuel cells?

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no idea, he is pre selling electric semi's. i thought you of all people, would know. okay, maybe behind z.

 

I believe his term is “fool cells”.

 

ok well only because you ask;

Toyota admits ‘Elon Musk is right’ about fuel cell, but moves forward with hydrogen anyway | Electrek

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as long as the tax dollars are flowing, don't give up the fight. unless you believe in ethics and morals.

 

That's crazy talk - I'm putting my fingers in my ears ~
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la-la-la-la-la-la-la.............

 

Fuel cell trucks make a heck of a lot more sense than passanger vehicles. I wish Toyota had started with this.

 

Like Nicola.
Nikola Corp

 

you may be aware already - but many of the L2's are set up to run on 2 legs of 3 phase - yielding L2's that are 208V. - which sometimes operate as low as 200V. It's more common than many realize, because many L2's are at dealerships - which typically get 3phase power. Without a detailed readout from a plugin car's screen, most might not be aware - and leave users wondering why their charge speeds seem slow.
Yesterday I took the better ½'s car to work & hooked up to 1 of 10 Disney employee Chargepoint stalls. Her onboard L2 charger is manually adjustable on the screen - from a low of 5 amps all the way up to 72 amps (not that there are many public stations that'll deliver that much). Her X revealed that our employee L2 Chargepoint stalls let you pull 30 amps max - but the readout on her X showed just 200V,
So - for a prime - you'd necessarily knock an additional 10V off, and adjust your charge time downward a tad more.
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If you get a chance, repeat the test with both voltage and current at the 5A and 30A limits. We can then calculate the resistance voltage drop to that J1772.

The 30A limit is consistent with 30A / 80% ~= 37.5A, rounded up to 40A circuit breaker. Of course it could be a Disney accountant cost savings or upstream feed limit. Worst case, ~400A feed for the 10 stations.

Bob Wilson