Pricey Oil a Waste of $$ -- Blackstone Labs seem to say

Some oil is better than no oil.

Are you changing it or adding to it?

Fixed that : Link

 

Much earlier, when PriusChat was young and dinosaurs still walked the earth, this was a thing to talk about.

On the 'oil' side there are 3 levels of wonderfulness. Real synthetics, hydroformed hydrocarbons (sold as synthetics; see Mobil1 etc.), and plain old oil which might be single- or multi-(thermal) graded.

On the Prius side, we have a burner-engine that is protected against (most?) extreme conditions by other parts of the hybrid drivetrain. Twere that lured me and BobW and others to examine lube and engine-metal casting-off and Blackstone was in on that. I would call it a long, incomplete and inconclusive effort.

But here the question is different. Can any oil or mix serve as good enough lube for Prius? I am inclined to say yes, but would exclude recycled oil that has lost some additives. Lubing Prius with near-market-bottom oils should work, but perhaps conservatively for <5k miles.

The trouble with using Blackstone or any oil-chem lab to explore such questions is that they can only tell something after a micron (about?) of solid metals have been scraped off. From someplace you'd wish they'd not been scraped.

 

I was never terribly interested in engine oil because I treated it as a twice a year event. In the Spring to void the winter condensate and Fall to take out the summer debris. Simple enough using a synthetic, I only remember testing the used oil from the first change, once.

I was and remain more interested in transaxle oil. It has no filter and is supposed to be a 'life time.' But the first transaxle oil change was colored like molasses and smelled of burn paraffin. The first transaxle oil changes of new Prius revealed sealant, manufacturing, and early wear debris with relatively rapid, viscosity shear-down.

In cold weather, I continue to see metrics suggesting there is a significant warm-up that reduces transaxle drag. The BMW i3-REx also shows evidence of the tire warm-up. One thought experiment is to pre-warm the transaxle and tires.

Bob Wilson

 

Can't remember if Bob was my guru concerning Prius transaxle oil change. But I will claim so and doubt anyone will dispute that.

But this is to be a thread most about oil in the explody thing; not the madly spinny thing. That oil accumulates particles as it does, from combustion soot, metal wear and foreign entry. What the oil filter does not hold back goes round and round.

Choice of engine oil does not directly influence that. It does influence lubricity and that marvelous property of oil can diminish thorough time. Faster, we suppose, with bargain oils.

Prius engine is typical of modern precision manufacturing. Because of transaxle help, it does not operate (much) in regimes that produce a lot of soot. So, if foreign entry is under control (your engine air filter is actually very important), and the oil filter is effective, you can perhaps run engine oil until just before its lubricity degrades below a happy level.

All that being hard to know, we select change intervals as xxx miles (realizing that yyy hours might be more sensible). Post-run engine oil analyses can inform that selection. Costs more than a gallon of oil so it would not be seen as money saving directly. But for those with pathological love of data it has a place

 

I hope you meant SAE 30 weight oil, not SAE 30W.
It appears there is officially no 30W standard.



from SAE J300 | Widman International SRL

 

You're Poised; I'm Stoked.

 

I love your technically precise terms.

 

Sad Trombone

 

Honorable mention, @tochatihu installed a micro-filtration, transmission oil system in his Gen-1. This still impressed me to no end although perhaps a little overkill.

My conclusion is once the initial manufacturing, sealant beads, and wear material are removed, the rate of transaxle oil, shear-down is significantly reduced. Each change reduces the particle load to ~25%. The second change, 25% * 25% ~= 6%. The third change, 25% * 6% ~= 1.5%. Once these particles are removed, all that remains is more like a thin smoke, at best a lapping compound and the oil achieves a 100k mi service interval as measured by oil viscosity.

Bob Wilson

 

Yeah, well, a sump magnet is underkill.

 

In one of my failed experiment, the initial, transaxle oil testing report suggested contamination due to high silicon levels. Thinking it was the negative pressure from the one-way vent valve, I replaced it with hoses to the air intake box, before the air filter. Then I tested the transaxle sealant and oil testing confirmed it was (is) the source of the high silicon readings.

Bob Wilson

 

I'm thinking you'll be OK.

If you're having to 'dump a quart of oil' into a 10-year-old car, then you're probably not wondering if your car is drinking or smoking behind your back. I think that the 30w and the 5w30 will coexist in your sump just fine.

It's the water in your body, NOT the water in your canteen that keeps you hydrated.

 

Over the years (and later the endless oil debates on the internet), I've come to the simple philosophy of: The best oil is the one you change regularly.

 

I don't know if it's OK. Whatever the standard for being OK might be.

But I look at like this.
For most of us, vehicles are a multi-thousand dollar investment, which offer us transportation from point A to point B. We rely on them, and invest quite a bit into their purchase.

Why do it?

Especially with the rather long intervals between Oil Changes, I feel why "mix" different weights,- why go cheap on Oil? Oil and Oil and Filter changes remain one of the most affordable and basic maintenance rituals possible.

I don't think that means we necessarily have to go online to find fully synthetic oils, placed in gold canisters, but for me my baseline is OEM recommendation.
If you look in the owners manual, there will be a recommendation for oil quality and oil weight. The page that say's go ahead and throw some old 30w NAPA oil in,- well it's missing.
To me? Assuming this isn't an "emergency" loss of Oil situation, there really is no reason to simply not stick with the baseline OEM recommendations for Oil quality and Oil weight.

Perhaps the only caveat to this approach would be people who start to run heavier weights as their engine ages and begins to burn oil. But even that should become a uniform, and repeated decision.

So in short.
Is it OK. Most likely probably.
Would I do it? No.

 

I've been buying Toyota oils in bulk from dealership, using a 10 liter gas container (No-Spill 1405). Just acquired a nice graduated 4.5 liter capacity graduated pitcher (Dynaline C34046). I'm doing oil changes on my car and a couple of other family members. I also refill a few used one liter and four liter oil bottles on hand, so I have some buffer room.

I'm a bit of an odd-duck I think: probably the only DIY'r in Vancouver buying motor oil in bulk? The dealership experience has been spotty: the price is up and down, and while they're willing to sell me bulk oil, it's not that organized; usually they send me to service, sometimes to parts.

Like bulk food purchases, I'm trying to reduce the spent containers I'm contributing to the recycle stream, and these are oil-fouled. I wish someone would see the viability to offer bulk oil, maybe an automotive specialty store could offer it. I should maybe do a bit of emailing.

 

Topping off lost oil? I'd go ahead if that was all at hand, if it is SAE approved for cars. If it is a non-detergent oil you use for chainsaw bars, those oils lack the detergents(obviously) needed to keep particles in suspension, and they might start sludging up when the detergent level is diluted. It also lacks the additives responsible for neutralizing acids and anti-seize molecules that protect during start up. It might also be a type one or two oil, which will break down faster.

As for 30SAE, it is likely thicker than 5w30 at operating temp, and might help reduce oil burning and seeps. It is thicker cold, which will reduce efficiency until warm up, and could reduce flow through the engine during that time.

As for Blackstone's findings, they are discussing the amount of engine wear, and I believe them. The reason to change oil isn't because it stops lubricating within that time, but because those anti acid and seize additives get used up. Total base number(TBN) is actually the important test for determining how much antacids are left. The amounts of those can vary between brands. Then synthetics can withstand heat better, and can last longer than conventional oils.

Got it mostly right. There are 5 types of motor oil. Types one through three are conventional oil with the higher the type, the more refining it has under gone. One and two were used back when 3000 mile or shorter oil change intervals were actually needed. Basic motor oils are now all type III. Type IV and V are synthetics; what they actually are made of differ. Type IV is the most common, and I think it is the one made up of esters.

Outside of the US, synthetics are actually synthetics. In the US, they are a synthetic blend because of Castrol. They were calling their new Syntec blend a synthetic. Mobil sued them, but the court bought Castrol's "it performs almost as well as a pure synthetic oil" argument.

Now my older research says that a 0wXX oil is actually a pure synthetic. Other multigrade oils use a 5 or 10 weight oil and use viscosity modifiers to bring it up as the oil gets hotter. To get that 0 weight requires starting with an oil that is that viscosity at operating temp, and use modifiers to drop it while cold. The info is old and may not apply anymore, even if it was correct to begin with, but 0wXX oils can't be had in conventional form, do help with efficiency, and are easy to get(Walmart's Supertech comes in them now)

The issues that the HSD transaxle faced were because Toyota called for using an automatic transmission fluid. Automatic transmission fluids pull double duty. In addition to lubricating, they also work as an hydraulic fluid. Meeting those two requirements mean that the fluid isn't very heat tolerant; conventional formulas could start breaking down when over 200F.

The transaxle really just needs a basic gear oil like those used in manual transmissions. I suspect Toyota with the automatic because it was better for efficiency, and possibly to avoid issues with techs putting in the wrong fluid. They finally put a transmission fluid cooler, that other automatic transmissions have been using for decades, in the gen4 Prius.

The new 2WD Ram pick ups use engine coolant to warm up the rear differential. The Prime might benefit from a low power heater for the transaxle as the engine usually isn't running at start up to help warm up the bay. Got to be careful to not scorch the fluid though. Tires will be tricky.

Just to repeat. Oil changes are done because important additives get used up.

But how regular is regularly?

We have the means of making those oil fouled bottles back into a sweet crude for more fuel, oil, and plastics.

 

Too many variables for a standard pat answer but at a minimum at least what the owners manual specifies.

In the Prius world it's probably more important to stress for folks to CHECK their oil!!!

 

Yes there are methods, but I prefer "reduce" to "recycle", especially when the latter is easily avoided. Especially with the (rushed) professionals, each "empty" bottle has 1~2 ounces of oil.


Plastic Oil Bottle Recycling |

Research Project Database | Grantee Research Project | ORD | US EPA

My setup: the red bottle is new oil, the clear bottle is waste oil, with the latter I just put a large/squat funnel in the neck, waste oil goes straight from the oil pan to the bottle, and I pour it out at Mr. Lube's waste oil tank.

 

The only REAL problem with modern engine oil is people. They don't check it and don't change (W/filter) often enough.