Received my invitation to order a Model 3 today

didn't Volt sales get cannibalized by the Bolt's?

 

That's a question which can only be asked about legacy automakers... hence a successful conveyance of Tesla being very different.

The answer is yes, since the tech in Volt has not been used elsewhere and sales have dropped below a profitable level... roughly 5,000 per month. With Toyota, we see the shift to a plug for Prius and the tech being deployed in the new Camry, as well as a variety of other hybrids.

Bolt would be a success story if those sales can break out of the same 1,600-1,700 rut Volt was stuck in. We've seen hints of the potential... but that was prior to Leaf gen-2 and Model 3 availability. There's the looming loss of the $7,500 tax-credit too, which the money-on-the-hood compensation already is raising concern.

 

Toyota's path is to left others do the heavy lifting of starting the segment. Without those pioneers, they would happily continue selling gas powered cars while lobbying for handouts to push hydrogen FCEVs.

Volt sales are down because people want the new shiny in the Bolt. Which you will claim is bad if you acknowledged it, but see the Prime cannibalizing Prius sales as good.

The gen2 Volt addressed concerns voiced about the gen1 since it was introduced. It can now mount a child seat in the middle rear, or squeeze in a fifth person if the need arises. Mainly, there was a major reduction in its cost. The technology is getting spread around. It is used in the Malibu hybrid, the CT6 PHEV, and will be in a Buick PHEV for China.

Toyota knew how the public viewed seating for 4 as in the Volt, and the loss of cargo space as in the C-max Energi. They went with those decisions anyway, and have back peddled with statements about addressing them. You've been trying to spin them as positives without success. If Toyota is such a forward planning company, why didn't they address the need for a PHEV battery pack spending the millions developing TNGA?

Fuel prices and consumer choice mean deals can be found on nearly all fuel efficient, actual cars. In Jan, I saw a 2018 Fusion hybrid listed with $9000 off, $10k off for the 2017. A search right now for Primes withing 50 miles of me on Cars.com, has multiple listings with $4500 to $5200 off. Many Primes have been sold because it can be had for less than the Prius because of these discounts and incentives. Without them, Toyota's plug in is in the same boat as GM. How are they going to address the loss of government incentives for a car that no longer appeals to a family with children like the Prius did?

 

MSRP of the two vehicles are drastically different.

$33,220 isn't even remotely close to $27,100.

Prius V with a plug. Camry with a plug. RAV4 with a plug. C-HR with a plug.

Each of those hybrids can easily be adapted to offer a Prime model.

 

if they come out with plug in camry, without screwing up the trunk, at the right price, i'm in.

 

anyway you could hold out for a Model Y?

 

Slow (waiting for affordable) and multiple path (both plug-in and fuel-cell) isn't really lost.

 

"There's the looming loss of the $7,500 tax-credit too, which the money-on-the-hood compensation already is raising concern." - post #22

Cars.com, zip code 19038, 50 mile radius is the search criteria I used that returned Prime Pluses listed with the aforementioned $4500 to $5200 discount. Same search, and Volt LTs are listed for $3000 to $3500.

Toyota has more time before a looming loss of tax credits, yet there is deeper discounts on the more affordable Prime than on the Volt. Why isn't that raising a concern?

But will they do so? Looks like the Rav4 will get one in 2020, but the US doesn't even get the hybrid C-HR. No word of the Prius v returning here either.

Then if getting Primed results in the same compromises to those models as it did to the Prius, the appeal to families will be lower than the hybrid or even ICE model.

Surely you jest.

Toyota's investment in TNGA was done to further reduce development costs. It relies on more sharing of parts between models. As we have seen from the photos of the space under the Prime pack, the TNGA platform used by the Prius/Prime and C-HR has the well for a spare tire in the floor pan of the cargo/trunk space. The Camry is built on the larger TNGA platform, but I'm guessing it still has that well.

Now, Toyota could redesign the Prime battery pack to better fit that space, but the side walls of that tire wall mean the pack will still protrude into the cargo space. It should be better than the Prime, but there isn't the extra space of a hatchback in the Camry. Then the Fusion Energi is getting a 25 mile EV range, which could mean larger pack for the Camry to match it.

I don't think Toyota will split the pack up to put some under the rear seat due to increased costs.

 

There's a profound difference between a first-year offering with awkward rollout timing (2017 inventory) into new markets compared to a well established nationwide offering in year-3 of gen-2.

 

Your definition is leadership is a mystery... which begs the question of mission-statement. Are you aware of the differences?

Not sharing the same goals means having different expectations.

 

I agree, they lost their leadership in the highest efficiency cars. It was never a big segment of the overall market, and Toyota ruled it for a while.

That said, once they are done playing it safe, they have the knowhow, and the capacity to quickly catch up.
Someday, I could see myself buying another Toyota. But that won’t be until they retake that leadership role in the segment of the marketplace that I am interested.

Meanwhile, Tesla, Nissan, BMW and possibly GM will continue to expand the marketplace for EVs, at the cost of the marketshare of gas cars.

I expect the marketshare of plugin cars to surpass the peak marketshare of hybrids by 2020.

 

It has been 17 months since the Prime's introduction. It isn't an all new model, and the dealers I'm seeing those discounts at are markets that got the PiP.

 

yes that looks very interesting to me, i can't wait for more details. our hycam only has 45,000 miles on it.

 

That claim of "leader" is meaningless without a qualifier. There are many categories of measure. To which are you referring?

This is business 101 stuff. You need to know what will be delivered. EV Range has absolutely no relation to Customer Satisfaction; yet, both are priorities. Then there's the monetary measures, like those related to Sales Volume, Gross Profit, and Dividend Payments. Each automaker will place different weights on the importance of those. There's also the difficult to evaluate categories, like Environmental Impact. Take all that, then consider the profoundly different mission statements:

"To accelerate the advent of sustainable transport by bringing compelling mass market electric cars to market as soon as possible."

"To attract and attain customers with high-valued products and services and the most satisfying ownership experience in America."

Think about how that influences approach and decisions. In other words, what type of leadership are you referring to?

 

Ahh,
So, 4/16 I put down a deposit, no record on Tesla site of how much, I guess the number 2 is tramposed, It's been two years, my deposite of ?.

Now, the model my deposit is aimed at is due in late 19, but I can buy.....for 49,995.00$ the more plush model, possibly, august of this year.
As of yet no invitation, just news from the tesla site that my deposite is going to wait a year and a half.....unless I take the bait and switch.


My 32,000.00$ model will be delayed another year and a half, but you have an invitation to continue to step 2, and Toyota sucks, see ya, wouldn't want to be ya....


Your cryptic, rudeness is wonderful, and Tessla's bait and switch is akin.

Don't let the door hit 'ya, where the good lord split 'ya.

Vaporware

Need a flamethrower?

 

The cheapest Model 3 currently available is $55,000 before tax. There is absolutely zero chance a Lexus compact or midsize BEV would be more expensive, like for like, than any of Tesla's offerings.

incredibly doubtful that single Model Y will be produced & delivered in 2019, much less one below 60k.


btw I would buy a Lexus-ified kammback/hatchback PHEV or BEV Camry in a heartbeat. 2018 Hybrid Camry is tempting. Unfortunately the ES 300h is a piece of garbage though.


What Toyota really ought to make is that damn hybrid pickup they've teased people about for the better part of a decade.