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Featured Nissan freezes fuel cell car development

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Trollbait, Jun 19, 2018.

  1. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    They aren't ending fuel cell studies, but are stopping the development of a hydrogen FCEV for the public.
    Nissan freezes fuel cell car development - News - NHK WORLD - English

    I suspect any research they continue doing will be focused more on their ethanol fueled solid oxide fuel cell
     
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  2. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Nissan is part of the Nissan/Ford/Mercedes group researching this, and Ford stopped, Mercedes announced they were only going to sell to fleets that had their own refueling. Research continues as is mentioned.

    That leaves Toyota, Hyundai, and Honda/GM partnership with fuel cell development. I'm sure Honda/GM would be happy to sell the Mercedes/Ford/Nissan group fuel cells if they can get them cheap enough and it lowers their costs. Those are due out in 2021. No one but Toyota seems to still thinks fuel cells are really viable in the next 5 years for cars. They definitely work for fork lifts.
     
  3. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    did the cash cow dry up?
     
  4. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

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    No, it sobered up.
     
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  5. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Water in the exhaust diluted their drinks.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  6. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Meanwhile toyota is trying to ramp up production in 2020

    Toyota Wants to Expand Hydrogen Fuel-Cell Vehicle Production - The Drive
    Of course they may just have not noticed and changed the plan from less than 3 years ago
    Toyota's plans to build a hydrogen-based society | Fortune
    My bet is the prius prime will outsell all of their fuel cell vehicles in 2020 and 2021.
     
  7. orenji

    orenji Senior Member

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    Mercedes has a Hydrogen SUV coming to the USA in 2019. Europe see Hydrogen in a much more positive way then here in the USA. Hydrogen development is far from over for Toyota, Honda, Mercedes, GM. 24 Hour Lemans announced this week that in 5 years they will have a new class for Hydrogen/Hybrids.
     
  8. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Is a hydrogen show case still planned for the Toyota Olympics in 2020?
     
  9. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Its the Tokyo Olympics and yes they plan on busses and cars. Canada did a hydrogen feature via buses in the 2010 Vancouver Olympics, and I expect hydrogen to be part of the 2028 LA Olympics too.

    Subscribe to read | Financial Times
     
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  10. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    need a face palm emoji
     
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  11. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

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  12. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    I wouldn't take that bet - even if you spotted me 20 to 1 odds.
    Gotta feel sorry for poor Toyota, trying to make the (to steal a Tesla phrase) Ludicrous seem possible. They remind me of poor Charlie Brown ... still thinking Lucy will properly hold the football - thought decades show otherwise. You can't explain why they don't face the facts.
    [​IMG]

    i hate to see any person or company's objective land flat on their back. Only to get up and fail again. If a house fly is trapped in your car, it continually bangs against the wind shield ... trying & trying & trying the same thing. Of course it does, it has no brain to speak of. But when people or company's do it, well that's not being absent a brain ... that's just deserving of sympathy.
    sigh
    .
     
  13. Dimitrij

    Dimitrij Active Member

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    Meaningful progress usually takes a lot of resources, effort and persistence.

    If new solutions came easily and without setbacks ("land flat on their back", as you'd put it), any one of us could just go to our basement and in 15 minutes return with a functioning prototype of a cold fusion reactor … or a universal anti-cancer vaccine … or a fool-proof peace plan for the next 18,000 years in the Middle East.

    But I agree that the concept of hydrogen ecosystem has a couple obstacles that may never become fully overcome. Those are related to the properties of hydrogen - not of the fuel cells as a technology in general.

    I wonder if we can see in near future a good progress in the Direct Methanol Fuel Cell field (DMFC). Methanol is liquid at normal conditions, so it's a lot easier and safer to transport, store and dispense than compressed hydrogen. Matter of fact, the existing gas/diesel infrastructure can be used to handle methanol without major reworking.
     
  14. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    In theory, Nissan's fuel cell can run on methanol. It is a solid oxide type, as oppose to a PEM that everyone else is using. Solid oxide fuel cells can auto reform simple organic compounds like methanol and methane. Nissan has set it up to run on ethanol though, with an on board reformer that uses waste heat from the cell.

    Volvo has a fuel cell that runs on diesel. It is smaller, they are looking in using it as an auxillairy power unit on sleeper trucks and boats. Then again, I don't think Nissan's is as powerful as what Toyota puts in the Mirai. They are building off of their BEV architecture. Keeping a large battery that is charged by a fuel cell or ICE in the case of their ePower hybrids.

    If we add CO2 into the equation of green electrolysis for hydrogen, we can make a light weight, sulfur free crude that can easily be refined into diesel. So we can have a green liquid fuel for future fuel cells that won't require any modification to the current infrastructure.
     
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  15. Dimitrij

    Dimitrij Active Member

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    Thanks for the info - I am going to read up on the SOFC; especially interested in YSZ selectively conducting
    O2- ions (I always thought this was impossible at lower - as in "much below 1000oC" - temperatures).

    I have been trying to engage in a good conversation about fuel cells on another, electric propulsion-related forum, but somehow ended up "arguing" with those whose understanding of electrochemical processes and apparatus is based on Mr. Musk's tweets :)
     
  16. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Advocacy has to be carefully done. Over at insideev we had some who replied to pretty much every posting with something about fuel cells.

    I once posted a technical review about a potable multi-voltage, multi-current EVSE only to draw a snarky comment about cables on the ground. I resisted the temptation to ask if they hover over the ground and never touch it.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  17. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Needing run hot is one of the SOFC downsides.

    Musk's comments really applies to using hydrogen for fuel. With CARB, Toyota, Japan's government, etc. support has made hydrogen and FCEV inseparatable at this point.
     
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  18. Dimitrij

    Dimitrij Active Member

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    Wouldn't be the first time when the regulations that are intended to help usher the new era in technology by tilting the playing field bring about strangely lopsided developments :)

    Do you know what prevents Honda from sticking a larger battery and a charging port into their Clarity FCEV?
     
  19. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    My guess is space. Hydrogen tanks are large and bulky. Being limited to spheres and cylinders for the tank shape makes packaging them in a car inefficient in terms of space. Other shapes are possible, but that requires increasing the tank's weight for the necessary strength. The 'lightest' 10k psi hydrogen tanks make up 95% of a full tank's weight. So 5kg tanks weigh over 210 pounds on their own.

    IIRC, the Clarity FCEV has a smaller trunk than the PHEV model.
     
  20. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    nothing
    except cost & weight of a larger traction pack & the onboard charger - added to an already (uber subsidized) expensive car. If you add that - you may have to go heavier suspension - & bigger (expensive platinum) fuel stack to compensate for weight to power ratio.
    Here's a video talking about why hydrogen car R&D has continued to be an ongoing hoax for some 4 decades +.
    Bob Wilson iirc 1st posted this awhile back ;


    This is why Nissan has come to their senses.
    .
     
    #20 hill, Aug 13, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2018
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