Toyota admits being hurt by Tesla, gives tepid response

Thank you for the update.

 

Hmmm, same could be said about Ferrari, but I still would want one!

 

In Japan, the hybrids were receiving subsidies until after the introduction of the PiP. Guess it took them 15 years to clear out the early adopter sales.

In its first full year of sales, the Model 3 sold nearly 140k units, with at least that many pre-order reservations still in place. It took five years for annual Prius sales to break 100k in the US, and a large spike in gas prices to get past what the Model 3 sold in its first year. Sales have been steadily declining with the fall in gas prices. Prius sales in the US, including the subsidized Prime, didn't break 80k for 2018.

Without the introduction of other models to increase choice, hybrid sales would be down there with diesels.

Ferraris aren't Camries that use hydrogen for fuel. Would you pay $50k for a Mirai if hydrogen refueling was available?

 

GREENWASH !!!

You can't compare tax-credit to non-tax-credit sales and expect to be taken seriously. That's not the slightest bit constructive.

I refuse to play your game.

 

IIRC, there were even incentives for our 2004 Prius back in the day. I don't recall how many years though. Just saying, if memory serves, that would put things on a similar playing field, if that's the crucial thing. I suppose the bottom line is, neither get Fed's support nowadays, & yet the model 3 sales remains Rocksteady - even before the cheap version is released. Aother issue / offset, this sales increase is even during depressed gas prices.
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The Prius years I'm comparing were receiving incentives.

Government incentives for fuel efficient vehicles in the United States - Wikipedia
The 2006 and some 2007 Prius received the full $3400 tax credit, and the 2007 and 2008 got the reduced amount. Before 2006 there was the $2000 tax deduction; I personally received that. Prius sales also benefited from the 'cash for clunkers' program.
Car Allowance Rebate System - Wikipedia

Many Prii were sold in California just because of the HOV benefit. CARB's ZEV program also influenced their sale, as it does for plug ins now.

If we are using the presence of incentives to define early adopter sales, it was only early adopters buying Prii up to the introduction of the gen 3.

 

Nope, you got caught attempting to greenwash.

"It took five years" was not during that time. In fact, the sales achievement of 100,000 happened *BEFORE* any tax-credit was offered here.

Attempting to portray a $350 deduction (post calculation) to a $7,500 credit (full amount collected) as the same is a blatant attempt to mislead.

Ignore.

 

I’m pretty sure Toyota reported at least two million Prius worldwide and one million in the USA. Perhaps @john1701a has the numbers?

Bob Wilson

 

'know your audience', 'osborne effect', 'greenwash', i need to expand my vocabulary

 

The first and third are simply arbitrary terms that have meanings that can shift and change as time goes by.
Kind of like "reverse the polarity of the neutron flow" in Star Trek.

 

I am a little late to the discussion due to work issues, but need to weigh in on this.

First of all, numbers matter, not rankings. How many Toyota Prius were traded for Model 3? Two of the top five are Honda. Are they the real losers?

What you are seeing now is the slow melt down of Tesla. Orders are down, layoffs are in play, prices are being adjusted, options are being discontinued, and charging rates are being adjusted upward by 30 percent or more. Furthermore, profits are thin.

I still believe that BEVs are stop gap cars. Batteries just don't have the power density. Hydrogen is the future.

 

I think it's like this:

10 Prius were traded in. All Gen 2.
5 BMWs. All leased based models.
3 Accords.
2 Civics.

For the record, while I like to listen to Fred Lambert, he is a Tesla Koolaid drinker. And a BEV fundamentalist.

 

Cash for clunkers? LOL. I thought that was a bad dream.

In my opinion, the Tesla phenomena is a one off, fueled by the disposable income of the tech industry and the California culture and climate. It's the pet rock or Beanie Baby of the modern age. And there will be no $35,000 Model 3. Tesla is in a scramble right now to export more expensive M3s to Europe and China to shore up cash flow.

 

Wow - good thing ....
Cumulative Tesla Model 3 Production Estimate Exceeds 175,000 - Tesla Motors Club

i'd hate to see if orders are up - if this is orders are down down down

must be cool .... being in the know
Tesla Rolls Back Supercharger Price Increases To Appease Owners - Tesla Motors Club
Oops

Stay tuned for the Next report .... someone will find a hole in an Elon Musk sock - which can only means he's almost broke. Gee, I hope I didn't just scoop someone's next news flash.
- the sky isn't falling - no matter what chicken little says.
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The Prius has also been on the market for over two decades now.
The Wiki says May 2008 was when the 1 million mark happened.

*sigh*
Not sure how I was green washing, since I was making not making any environmental claims.
Greenwashing - Wikipedia
Your initial post that I responded too made no mention of a subsidy's value as a metric as to whether or not a car is still in the "subsidy stage".

The gen1 Prius(2000 to 2003) sales total in the US was 65,864. The highest sales for a year was 24,627 in 2003. There was few, if any, incentives for hybrids at the time.
Sales more than doubled to 54,991 in 2004. The iconic gen2 was introduced that year, but is also the year when the incentives started in the US. The tax deduction was not as generous as a credit, but it is still a subsidy. State incentives also were coming into effect; Pa had a $500 rebate.
Sales doubled again in 2005. To the best of my knowledge, this is the year that HOV stickers in California took effect, though it could have started earlier. Such stickers added up to $4000 to the price of a used Prius.

So, annual Prius sales did not reach until 2005, when several, some high value, subsidies for hybrids were in effect.

Toyota Prius liftback US car sales figures

 

since Gen1 sales were small - one Million sales truly indicates our Gen2 (5 or 6yrs) was the model that accounted for Prius flying off the shelf like gangbusters (majority of the 1st million) - albeit (despite) its rather controversial styling. Yet the 2nd million .... that takes nearly double the years ..... even though PiP & prime got/get $$$/hov incentives. Are Prime sales, in significant part - prior Prius owners? .... rather than conquest sales made off other manufacturers?
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can you give us an in depth run down of how hydrogen is going to solve our transportation energy problem? i haven't seen anything that explains it, thank you

i've already seen the 'this is where the miracle happens' chart

 

Roughly 40% of model 3 buyers had a trade,
Still not an answer but closer

 

and breaking ground on a 5 billion dollar factory in china