1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Featured UPS investing $450 million more into CNG

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Trollbait, Oct 9, 2019.

  1. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    21,594
    11,213
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
  2. mr88cet

    mr88cet Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2008
    2,306
    1,328
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    EDIT: OK, OK, I originally missed the line about the gas coming from landfills, so I mostly retract my comments below. My mistake. Still, I’m a little concerned about dilution of these terms, so I’ll still air my misguided concerns below:

    I’m good with this (CNG beats diesel), but why are they using “renewable” to describe CNG-powered vehicles?!

    “Clean” might be appropriate, up to a point anyway, but CNG is not “renewable.”

    Solar and wind are renewable resources. Biodiesel and (bio) ethanol are renewable resources. Natural gas, like coal, gasoline, and diesel, are extracted from wells; they are most definitely not renewable.

    How soon before they start selling us “renewable” gasoline?!
     
    #2 mr88cet, Oct 9, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
  3. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    21,594
    11,213
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Renewable natural gas is bio-methane. It is the gas coming off landfills, anaerobic digesters at dairy farms, and other sources of microbe produced methane. It is the alcohol/biodeisel equivalent for CNG that requires no change to the CNG vehicle to use at 100%.

    I don't know what percentage of UPS' CNG use will be renewable, but they have an agreement in place to buy 230 million gallon equivalents of it over 7 years, making them the largest user of it.

    UPS is using CNG converted engines, but CNG dedicated engines that are more efficient might start coming to market in the next few years.
    You can also make renewable methane with renewable electricity, water, and CO2, but I'm unaware of any such plants in the US. In theory, we could make renewable gasoline along the same pathway, but it is easier and cheaper to make diesel or methanol from that method. The diesel would be direct replacement, but methanol would require many of the same adaptions to the engine as a ethanol flexfuel to handle in in high concentrations.

    edit: I call foul on your edit timing.
    Renewable methane can said to be more renewable than ethanol and biodiesel, as most of it is being made from literal waste.
     
  4. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2012
    10,767
    4,370
    0
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest, USA
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Lol... What a joke... When you replace fuels derived from crude oil, with fuels derived from natural gas you decrease carbon and increase methane. You do absolutely nothing to reduce greenhouse gases. Only thing you accomplish, quite literally is gas lighting everyone who is concerned about air pollution at scale:

    The Literal Gaslighting That Helps America Avoid Acting on the Climate Crisis | The New Yorker

    "...carbon dioxide is not the only greenhouse gas. The second most important contributor to climate change is methane—CH4. And, when you frack the countryside for natural gas to burn in power plants, lots of methane leaks out at every stage of the process, from drilling to combustion. So: less carbon dioxide, more methane."
     
    #4 PriusCamper, Oct 9, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
  5. mjoo

    mjoo Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2016
    1,105
    1,311
    12
    Location:
    Michigan
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    III
    Just think of all the renewable flatulence they can harvest from drivers...

    Clean air indeed.
     
    PriusCamper likes this.
  6. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2012
    10,767
    4,370
    0
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest, USA
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Is it just me or is it getting hot in here?
     
    mjoo likes this.
  7. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    21,594
    11,213
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    There are emissions beyond green house gases, and engines running on natural gas emit less of those than even gasoline ones, and they could do that while increasing efficiency and power.

    Increased demand for natural gas through transportation use should encourage better practices in the industry as methane leaks are lost revenue. Using renewable methane will offset some of the GHG emissions as that carbon orginally came from the atmosphere. The methane from landfills and farms was already going into the atmosphere we decided to capture and burn it. Much of it still is.
     
  8. mr88cet

    mr88cet Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2008
    2,306
    1,328
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Partially agree, but not completely.

    Each methane molecule you burn produces 1 CO2 molecule and 2 water molecules. So, twice as many molecules of water as molecules of CO2.

    Gasoline of course contains a very wide variety of hydrocarbons, but speaking in rough numbers, they average somewhere around nonane C9H20. Burning one molecule of nonane produces 9 CO2 molecules and 10 water molecules. So, very approximately an equal number.

    While water can, and does, function as a greenhouse gas, adding steam to the air is not going to raise global temperatures any appreciable amount; all it does is raise the relative humidity of the air in that particular area, after which it condenses harmlessly into liquid water. CO2, however, is going to say a gas, unless or until it undergoes a chemical process to, for example, acidify the oceans, which is arguably even worse.

    Now of course you have to also factor in a comparison of how much heat energy is produced by burning each, but I think we’ll find that burning natural gas is considerably better for the environment.

    That of course, plus their alleged-at-least goal is to burn landfill-generated methane, in which case they’re stopping that methane from going into the air, and allegedly not taking it from fossil sources.
     
  9. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2012
    10,767
    4,370
    0
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest, USA
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Well yes... If you were producing natural gas and its methane by product in a lab under controlled circumstances. But true cost accounting in the real world of fossil fuel production via fracking means at every step in the production process you're leaking natural gas into the atmosphere on a massive scale and despite efforts to force frackers to capture and contain natural gas they've been able to get out from under all those rules and in some cases barely even use flaring to burn off the gas. One upside to methane over hydrocarbons is it's yummy food for microorganisms, especially in the ocean where they can eat huge amounts of it very quickly.
     
  10. mr88cet

    mr88cet Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2008
    2,306
    1,328
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    I think these are ultimately two largely-independent concerns. Methane being an even-more-powerful greenhouse gas than CO2, we definitely need to control such leaks. You’re certainly right about that.

    However, gas and petroleum are going to be taken out of the ground no matter what we do. Nothing is going to stop that, like it or not, until it becomes just too hard to extract. These materials are just far too useful to not take advantage of! I’m not commenting as to whether this is good or bad, but just that it’s unstoppable.

    The only things we have any chance of controlling is how much and which types of petroleum products we burn, vs. use to create plastics, fertilizers, medicines, synthetic motor oils, etc. — the modern world, in summary.

    Unfortunately, attempting even to reduce burning of fossil fuels is hard, but we’re helping by buying efficient cars, reducing household energy consumption, and supporting legislation along such lines.
     
    #10 mr88cet, Oct 10, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2019
    Trollbait likes this.
  11. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2012
    10,767
    4,370
    0
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest, USA
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    They said slaves would never be free and women would never have the right to vote too... More recently they said public school teachers living in poverty in West Virginia, Mississippi, California, Arizona would never be given a raise and would have to live in poverty, but you know what... They went on strike and brought the system to its knees and got their demands met. Likewise every Friday around the world indefinitely millions and millions of kids are marching in the streets to prove you and your ilk are dead wrong about the future of fossil fuels and a global general strike is what is going to happen, as well it's what it's going to take to nullify the agenda of misguided fossil fools like yourself.
     
  12. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    21,594
    11,213
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Until there is an alternative that meets the demand for everything made from fossil fuels, they will be taken out of the ground.
     
    mr88cet likes this.
  13. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2012
    10,767
    4,370
    0
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest, USA
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    And until yourself and others wake up to the fact that those alternatives already exist and are being rapidly developed and deployed with pricing equal to or less than fossil fuels, the resistance to rapidly addressing global air pollution issues will not weaken as quickly as it needs to...
     
  14. noonm

    noonm Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2019
    575
    595
    0
    Location:
    NJ
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Sounds like a good opportunity to share this tidbit again:


    At least I'll know my packages exploded with renewable methane!
     
    mr88cet likes this.
  15. mr88cet

    mr88cet Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2008
    2,306
    1,328
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Such events are exceptionally rare, but apparently not rare enough...

    In the rare cases where EVs catch fire, at least they don’t explode!
     
  16. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    21,594
    11,213
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Oh, how much of the plastics now used aren't from petroleum? Which bioplastics have pricing equal to petroleum based ones?
    The type of rubber in tires varies with the price of latex and petroleum.
    Synthetic motor oil is made from natural gas, and BEVs still use grease.
    What will roads be paved with? Concrete isn't ideal for all climates, and that industry is also a heavy CO2 emitter.
    Fossil fuels are our main source for fertilizer.
    Then the organic chemical feedstocks from fossil fuels goes into thousands of products, including medications.

    We shouldn't be burning fossil fuels because we will need for other things.
     
  17. noonm

    noonm Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2019
    575
    595
    0
    Location:
    NJ
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Alternatives to petroleum-based materials are actually easier to solve with a combination of extensive recycling + bio-based sources to make up the unusable materials.

    For example, here's a list of bio-asphalt alternatives:
    [​IMG]

    Cost is an issue, but if oil were priced to more accurately represent their costs to human health and the environment, these alternatives would be much more competitive.
     
    PriusCamper likes this.
  18. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    21,594
    11,213
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    The issue isn't that replacements can't be found. It is denigrating a solution for not being perfect.

    Renewable methane is relatively easy to do, but its supply won't meet natural gas demand overnight. When it does become available, it can simply be pumped into the existing natural gas network. So CNG trucks built today can transition to from fossil to renewable as the latter becomes available. Just like a BEV being charged on a dirty grid.

    There isn't a drop in replacement for gasoline than won't require some modification to existing engines and/or distribution. Ethanol is the only option with mass investment in the US. It can't be shipped in existing petroleum pipelines, and US flexfuel vehicles available now still need some gasoline in the mix.

    CNG engines themselves are a conversion of a gasoline or diesel one, but development is going on with engines designed for CNG. Then solid oxide fuel cells can use methane without an onboard reformer.

    Until renewable methane becomes more available, natural gas trucks will emit less particulates and other harmful emissions

    Neither will the battery supply grow quickly enough to meet current vehicle demand. And batteries going into cars are batteries not going to grid storage for reducing use of fossil fuel power plants.

    Natural gas has its drawbacks, but UPS getting 6000 CNG trucks over the next 3 years to add to the 1700 they already have is better than buying gas and diesel ones instead while waiting for BEV options to come to market.
     
  19. noonm

    noonm Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2019
    575
    595
    0
    Location:
    NJ
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    That's not quite correct: Alternative Fuels Data Center: Renewable Hydrocarbon Biofuels

    However, the only renewable drop-in replacement fuel that probably has a future is for jet fuel.

    I do agree about not making perfect the enemy of the good. The issue I have with UPS's decision is that these are vehicles they are likely to continue using for 20-30 years. There is likely going to be many electric truck options long before this fleet of CNG trucks need replacing.
     
  20. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2016
    2,567
    1,595
    0
    Location:
    Somewhere in Wisconsin
    Vehicle:
    2013 Chevy Volt
    Model:
    N/A
    it’s called bio butanol

    genetically modified organisms like algae may be able to directly convert power plant exhaust directly to biodiesel or bio butanol but the Russian developed organisms come with concerns of release into the environment