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EGR issue with me dealership

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Care, Maintenance & Troubleshooting' started by El Gato, Aug 5, 2021.

  1. El Gato

    El Gato Junior Member

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    So need some advice here on how to proceed on an issue I have. Quick backround: 2010 purchased in 2009 with 222,000 miles on it.

    In 2018 @ 170k miles was told I had an EGR issue (check engine light). Took it to dealer and got P0304 Engine misfire and found clogged EGR passages. They replaced the valve, gaskets, pipe assembly and manifold assembly at a cost of $1,500 to me.

    Fast forward 3 years and apx 50,000 miles later and check engine light again pointing to EGR. Take it to local shop who tells me 3 spark plugs and coils need to to be replaced and that the EGR valve as well is clogged. I tell them about recently changing the EGR and he says that dealership likely replaced it but didn't clean all the passages...? So I go ahead and replace the spark plugs but hold off on the EGR but still schedule an appointment with dealership (was hoping for a warranty). Took it in yesterday to dealer (driven about 150 miles since last week) and check engine light has disappeared since local guys replaced spark plugs so dealer says they can't look to see if there is an EGR issue with no code being generated so I get other service done that I need (fuel system cleaning). Got a call last night that in the time they took the car from the lot to the bay my check engine light popped back up and service advisor says, "I told the tech about your '18 work and he inspected it and said everything was good but that they forgot to update the software, so they updated it and the code went away but we want to keep it over night and try a cold start tomorrow to see what happens." I say ok. So got the call this morning and they tell me that the light popped back on again and they are now recommending replacing the EGR valve and all the stuff around it for another $1,500. I'm so untrusting of a dealership but the local mechanic told me the same couple weeks back. Am I being bamboozled here? If it really is the EGR should it be failing again 3 years 50k miles later? If no then that dealer did a crappy job back in '18 and I should take it elsewhere. Thoughts? Maybe it's time to not keep pouring money into this vehicle?...
     
    #1 El Gato, Aug 5, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2021
  2. JC91006

    JC91006 Senior Member

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    There is/was an extended warranty campaign on the EGR valve, you should have gotten a letter from Toyota. They should replace it for free (if it's still within the extended warranty timeline).

    The problem with "paying" for this service, it may not fix your problem. It "could" fix your problem, but if it doesn't, you are still paying $1500 for their efforts
     
  3. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    First, what are the codes? Hopefully they are egr specific and not just misfire codes. There are many other misfire code causes. No cold start rattles, ever? No coolant loss?

    I would then guess your car is burning some oil and clogging the egr system up pretty fast now. The system can be cleaned however it requires complete removal and a few hours of work to clean the worst part, the egr cooler.

    The egr cooler can also be purchased used and already clean in some cases. 2560137010 egr | eBay. Some are overseas, some are clogged. The intake manifold should be removed in the process and its egr passages cleaned as well.

    Based on your wording it is not clear that the egr cooler was replaced. Normally it is the worst part. Dealers rarely want to clean these parts as it is time consuming to access and clean. If they flat out did not replace the egr cooler, a claim might be warranted. Including part numbers would be useful for better advice.

    I will pm you a resource you can consider.
     

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    #3 rjparker, Aug 5, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2021
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  4. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    Sad but true: it’s much cheaper, and much more effective, to learn what’s going on with the Exhaust Gas Recirculation system, and do the cleaning periodically yourself. Really no parts need be replaced, well maybe some of the gaskets. See the EGR link in my signature.
     
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  5. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    ^ This.
     
  6. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    o_O
    Sorry.
    Channeling my inner @Grit ...:D

    ^ THAT!!
     
    #6 ETC(SS), Aug 5, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2021
  7. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    If you think English word order's too loosey-goosey, try Latin.
     
  8. El Gato

    El Gato Junior Member

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    No mention of the cooler when I asked the service advisory about that and he said EGR cooler and EGR valve are the same thing, "we use both terms to refer to the same part."

    Slight rattle on cold starts. I do not believe coolant loss is an issue as I've never had to have that filled that up because of severe loss. Burning oil quickly, maybe...going back to 2018 everytime I go in for an oil change I'm told that I am almost at empty and that I am losing oil somewhere. I've just gotten accustomed to going in the shop in between for free top off's (it's usually half way down at that point). Now, I have also been told back to 2018 that the timing chain cover is leaking (oil is visible on the underside) so I don't know if that is my oil issue.

    I have attached that portion of the 2018 receipt that shows work and parts that were ordered and nothing about an EGR cooler but the misfire code at that time was P0304. I did reach out to the Service Advisor about the code and he replied, "There was no misfire code. We found the DTC CODE P0401 – EXHAUST GAS RECIRCULATION FLOW INSUFFICIENT DETECTED."

    I'll look at the PM's now for those resources.
     

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    #8 El Gato, Aug 5, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2021
  9. El Gato

    El Gato Junior Member

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    Thanks for that. So found this Toyota Service Bulletin which sates:
    So repair was done in Jul 2018 @ 170,709. Within 10 years being as I started using it Aug 2009, but over the 150,000:(...however, would this still apply to the new EGR valve installed that July of 2018? Service advisory told me only 1 year and 12,000 miles for that 2018 job which of course is way past that, but would this extended warranty apply here?

    Also how could this not fix the problem?

    Thanks!
     
  10. El Gato

    El Gato Junior Member

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    Thank you, I am really trying to educate myself on this at least to give myself more information when dealing with mechanics but I don't have the skillset nor tools for serious DIY work. The most I've ever done is replace a 12V battery, change out burned out bulbs, cabin/air filters, and window wipers :). Will take a look at that link.
     
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  11. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    As always, the current codes are important. The dealer may be right about a bad egr flow but I will bet his proposed solution is wrong.

    The egr valve and cooler are not the same part and the cooler costs significantly more than the valve. The cooler is the part I listed above and is the hard item to remove and clean. Normally it clogs up and no flow is available to the downstream egr valve, pipe or manifold. There is a specific egr code if the egr clogs up. Even then it takes time to code.

    You need another opinion. Realize service advisors are more salesmen and often do not know details. They rely on what the mechanic says. If there is potential rework involved, the mechanic has to do it free. What would you do if someone told you to do four hours of work free?

    The truth is likely somewhere in between on a 222k Prius operated in Texas for ten years. Yes, your egr cooler needs cleaning even if it miraculously still has slight flow. If the dealer does it he will replace the cooler with new for well over $300 for the part alone. It is highly unlikely you need another intake manifold and or another egr valve after 50k miles. I still have an original manifold and egr valve after 250,000 miles. They have been off and cleaned several times.

    The timing chain leak is common and it is usually slow enough that no oil spots are on the ground from your car. The labor to change that gasket is almost $1000. These models burn oil through the cylinders and is where 90% of where your oil is going.

    So a good second opinion is needed and don't expect a single silver bullet to solve everything. The egr valve, as listed on your receipt, is highlighted below. The cooler is #7 to the right. That service advisor is incorrect, they are not one and the same part.

    AF922B89-0656-402D-8C8E-417D432AB23B.jpeg

    The engine may need a rebuild soon to really make it right.
     
    #11 rjparker, Aug 5, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2021
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  12. El Gato

    El Gato Junior Member

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    Thanks @rjparker ! I now see the difference with the valve and the cooler that attaches to it! As for the code I did update my post after I got an email back from the service advisor in which he replied, "There was no misfire code. We found the DTC CODE P0401 – EXHAUST GAS RECIRCULATION FLOW INSUFFICIENT DETECTED."

    As for the Timing chain leak, correct no oil spots on ground, just visible on the underside. They actually quoted me for $2,500 back in 2018. Been avoiding it simply cause like I mentioned I just top the oil as needed.

    I guess bottom line here is...I just dropped $800 for the spark plugs & coils, about to drop $1,200 for a fuel injector service...could I get at least 3 more years (50k-70k miles) here before needing a new vehicle? That is my ultimate goal (wait for daughter to get out of daycare)?
     
    #12 El Gato, Aug 5, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2021
  13. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    So you definitely have no egr flow and they are throwing the parts cannon at it with Stevie Wonder at the gunsight. Plugs, coils, injectors. $1,500 egr work without a cooler.

    They are guessing. At your expense. Your choice but I stand by my recommendations. A rebuilt engine could be in your car for about $800 + $1,200 + 1,500 and it would include the $2,500 oil leak for free!

    Again, a good second opinion is needed and don't expect a single silver bullet to solve everything. Maybe another car should be an option but the market is not in your favor right now.
     
  14. El Gato

    El Gato Junior Member

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    Hmm...ok. Well the spark plugs and coils were done elsewhere last week at the local mechanic (Sun Auto) and they were getting specific misfire codes for that at the time, and this also goes back to 2018 when it (spark plugs) was a diagnosed issue then and I just neglected it. So finally got it done and those dudes completed the work for me for $800. They (Sun Auto) also noticed the EGR valve code too, recommended replacement and cleaning the cooler (they actually mentioned the cooler and said it was likely not done in 2018 by Toyota) but I chose to hold off on that and get a second opinion/quote Toyota today which is where we are at now. Didn't understand what Toyota was telling me and was not really happy with these options so came here for more information (and I have learned sooo much already!!! I'm using all these attachments and information in my email response now to Toyota Service Advisor).

    Sadly I've already invested the $800 last week on the spark plugs/coils, $1,200 yesterday/today on the fuel service (although I'm seeing a quote from them about this also in 2018 for $250 and local place also had similar price so now need to find out why the huge difference in price for that service) and I do have an appointment with Sun Auto on Monday to take another look at this if I can't get Toyota to do the EGR work for free considering they did not touch the cooler back in 2018.
     
  15. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    Nine times outa ten it’s not the coils?
     
  16. El Gato

    El Gato Junior Member

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    I did ask how they knew the coils @Mendel Leisk were an issue and they said they were corroded when they inspected them. Keep in mind I am not totally oblivious to things but do not have as much knowledge as ya'll here.
     
  17. El Gato

    El Gato Junior Member

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    Udpate: Just got a call from the dealer after I sent a long email with everything I've learned here. Advisor starts with noting the recent spark plug work and the fact that back in 2018 it also had that misfire work and they recommended spark plugs then as well too (remember got the EGR changed at that time but declined other work). Taking that into account and also noting that Prius has a history of blowing head gaskets which also can cause a misfire code, they want to take a look at that and make sure that is not the issue before doing any other work. I've heard of head gasket issue on other forums but now I need to do research myself on that in case they come back at me with that issue.

    I have a 2nd appointment already set up elsewhere but since my Prius is at Toyota now I wanted to push for the EGR repair for free considering the '18 issue where I believe they did not do the work correctly. Otherwise I would have already told them to return the car, but now this...
     
  18. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    Hopefully its not a head gasket but at least the dealer senses you have done some homework and are now getting real. They were caught with their pants down on the egr cooler and are trying to get it right this time or at least sell you a new car.

    Head gaskets are a chronic issue with 2010-14 gen3s along with oil burning and are often the underlying reason a rebuild is necessary. If the cold start shakes and rattles have happened recently the next step is usually a borescope visual inspection of the cylinder. A leaking head gasket will typically provide a cleaner piston than the others.

    Most dealers won't recommend a replacement head gasket for good reason. Too often the car needs a rebuilt head along with the hg and the engine may already be an oil burner. Piston ring issues are not fixed with a hg repair.

    At a reasonably priced dealer, a rebuild/replacement engine is $5k-$7.5k depending on how many auxiliary bolt on parts are also replaced. Your dealer seems to be excessively high on service work so they could be much higher.

    If this worse case scenario plays out, they will offer $1,500 or less as a trade in on a new car. Drive a little, save a lot.
     
    #18 rjparker, Aug 6, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2021
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  19. Grit

    Grit Senior Member

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    that’s when you just buy a regular gasser, save even more if you drive less.