Gas From Pump Slowly Goes In, Then It Spills Back Out... (help!)

I ran out of gas and refilled using a standard 2-gallon container. I rotated the container trying to completely empty it. Somehow, the outer sleeve portion of the nozzle came off and partially slid down the gas line. I managed to retrieve the spring between the inner and outer portions of the nozzle. Initially, I could see a lip caught the tube, so it was barely visible and just needed to find a tool to pull it back out.

On the way home, the nozzle slid further down so I lost hope of grabbing it with long needle nose pliers. When I went to the gas station to fill up the tank the pump handle kept clicking off as it typically does when the tank is full (of course, knew it wasn't). I was able to put gas in by partially squeezing the handle to limit rate gas was released and added a few extra gallons.

So a week later I put more gas in using the same technique (partially squeezing gas pump handle). But this time after maybe a 1/2 gallon of gas went it into car it gushed back out! The next day I tried again, this time pumping even more slowly. After a short while, gas backed up and started flowing out.

I explained this to a mechanic over the phone and he told me I need a new fuel filler neck and the fuel tank and lines need to be decontaminated.

Does this make sense? I have the Fuel section of the service manual (gotta love the page numbering) and can't find the route/path that roughly 5" plastic tube must travel to get somewhere dangerous. There are no apparent issues with gas getting to the engine.

What needs to be done and roughly how many hours labor should I expect to pay? Seems like the line/tank need to be removed to get to the plastic tube (then pull it out), from a layman's perspective. Any help greatly appreciated!!

 

Thank you once again for your help. Comprehensive, concise, and exactly what I needed! (when are they going to enable the 'buy you a beer' function on the site - owe you more than one!)

 

Just remembered you're a Boilermaker... That's okay, IU doesn't even offer an engineering degree (or at least they didn't when I was there) and you sure as heck have earned more than a beer for all the times you've helped me out! Thanks again!

 

Do you sense any need for "decontaminating" the fuel take/lines as a result of this? I was thinking worst case I'd find some sort of fuel enhancer/cleaner would take care of any issues related to that, but my only experience with those is putting some fuel additive to my 1982 Honda Prelude trying to pick up a couple HP (lol, but unfortunately true).

 

I hired an ASE-certified mechanic to come out to my place and check out the "plastic tube issue in fuel line" issue and found we couldn't even get a thick magic marker (little skinnier and shorter than the gas can spout sleeve) to go down the fuel pipe. So, while I did see a white ring that came from the gas container (didn't go down, just rested at the end of the area one sees when looking down) the outer shell of the "gas can spout" couldn't have gone down the tank and must have rolled under the car when fell apart. I was refueling at night and tried to get the last of the gas out of the container, turned the canister around and think that's when the wheels fell off...

I suppose it was just a coincidental the refueling process problem started at the same time (?) as running out of gas and the canister falling apart.

I was able to fill the tank by slowly letting gas in (slightly squeezing the gas pump) for about a month or so. It was only last week the belching gas out started.

Does that information help diagnose which part needs to be emptied and/or replaced? I'm working off the assumption the mechanic is incapable of systematic trouble-shooting, which is sort of I need to assume if I want this fixed without taking it to the dealership.

Unfortunately, although he was ASE-certified he didn't have much experience with hybrids/Prius. I provided him with pics of the charcoal canister, he didn't have much interest in looking at them or for the unit at the time. So he basically took enough things apart for the roughly 1/2 gallon of gas left in the car to pour out (thankfully into a bucket, able to get back into tank) and put things back together without any diagnostic work. At least he was willing to go to the gas station with me and see how the pump puts ~0.05 gallon gas in, then clicks off like the tank is full. He seemed surprised and wanted to go to another pump. We tried another one and got the same result. Also, after roughly 15+ clicks there was enough gas to start slowly belching gas out, so I paid $165 and was same spot I started (except I now know there isn't a white plastic tube/sleeve causing the problem. He said he'd research the issues and get back to me tomorrow.

I understand from ChapmanF, "A fuel tank like that in the Prius is designed to 'cooperate' with that kind of pump nozzle, and the operations of the canister-closed valve, refuel check valve, and fuel cutoff valve combine to tell the pump nozzle when to shut off." Further down his post explains how to inspect two of the three valves: the fuel cutoff valve & refuel check valve (little odd there's only one step the the latter, but seems self-explanatory).

What's the process for the canister closed valve Inspection as well as the bladder?

As always, any thoughts or references to helpful information much appreciated!
Thank you!

 

Just reviewed a Techstream Health Check and noticed I have a P0441 code.

Does this information (below) seem generally on point?

Separately, could this be triggered by someone who doesn't exactly know what they're doing taking parts of the fuel tank apart and putting back together? I tried getting the mechanic to see if he could locate the charcoal canister after showing pics of one and I don't think he looked at the picture too carefully or didn't find it.

Odds of a false positive or how to confirm it's broke? I'm thinking I should clear that code and see if it comes back on now the fuel cap is replaced. Then if (when) it does, maybe it confirms needs to be replaced? Then again, maybe the best way just to simply check if fuel reached charcoal canister... (ideas?)

P0441 Possible Causes

• Missing Fuel cap
• Incorrect fuel filler cap used
• Fuel filler cap remains open or fails to close
• Foreign matter caught in fuel filler cap
• Incorrect fuel tank vacuum relief valve

Tech Notes
The P0441 code means that the control module has detected a leak in the Evaporative Emission (EVAP). Loose fuel tank filler cap is the most common cause that triggers the P0441 code. [BTW, daughter lost the fuel tank cap after (trying) to refill gas in car; It was first time gas really gushed out and got all over her clothes, so understandable she forgot the cap. She thought I might be upset about losing the cap; I was just appreciative she was thoughtful enough to buy some gas, many teenagers don't bother]

What is the cost to diagnose the P0441 code
Labor: 1.0
The cost to diagnose the P0441 code is 1.0 hour of labor. The auto repair's diagnosis time and labor rates vary by location, vehicle's make and model, and even your engine type. Most auto repair shops charge between $75 and $150 per hour.

When is the code detected?
Pressure in charcoal canister and fuel tank does not drop during purge control (2 trip detection logic) ?
[This seems to contradict the notion "loose fuel tank filler cap is the most common cause that triggers the P0441 code" just mentioned above...]

Possible Symptoms

• Engine Light ON (or Service Engine Soon Warning Light)
• Possible a noticeable fuel odor caused by the release of fuel vapors

P0441 Meaning
The Engine Control Module (ECM) tests the Evaporative Emission (EVAP) system for the following conditions:
- Large and small leaks
- Excess vacuum
- Purge flow during non-commanded conditions
- Fuel Level and Fuel Pressure sensor faults
- EVAP Purge and Vent Valve faults
The ECM monitors the Fuel Tank Pressure sensor in order to determine the level of vacuum/pressure in the EVAP system. The ECM commands both the EVAP Purge Solenoid and the EVAP Vent Valve ON when the conditions are met in order to apply an engine vacuum to the EVAP system. The ECM commands the EVAP Purge Solenoid OFF once the system has reached a predetermined level of vacuum. This test verifies if a vacuum can be achieved in the EVAP system. Failure to develop a vacuum may be caused by a large leak or a restriction.

 

Whoa... Maybe shouldn't have gotten so excited when I saw first code related to problem. There's also a P0455 code, which on the surface seems to at least partially overlap with the P0441 Code.

"Possible Causes" listed below pretty wide open. Again, any advice?

P0455 Possible Causes

• Missing or loose fuel cap
• Incorrect fuel filler cap used
• Fuel filler cap remains open or fails to close
• Foreign matter caught in fuel filler cap
• EVAP canister or fuel tank leaks
• EVAP system hose leaking
• Fuel tank leaking

Tech Notes
The P0455 it’s a quite common code because the code is set if the gas cap is loose or missing [feeling a little deja vu... seems very similar to P0441]. Start by tightening the gas cap and clearing the code. In most cases, the code can be clear by disconnecting the car battery for about 30 minutes.

What is the cost to diagnose the P0455 code
Labor: 1.0
The cost to diagnose the P0455 code is 1.0 hour of labor. The auto repair's diagnosis time and labor rates vary by location, vehicle's make and model, and even your engine type. Most auto repair shops charge between $75 and $150 per hour.

When is the code detected?
Evaporative Emission System (EVAP) control system has a very large leak such as fuel filler cap fell off, EVAP control system does not operate properly.

Possible Symptoms

• Engine Light ON (or Service Engine Soon Warning Light)
• Possible a noticeable fuel odor caused by the release of fuel vapors

P0455 Meaning
This diagnosis detects leaks in the Evaporative Emission System (EVAP) purge line using engine intake manifold vacuum. If pressure does not increase, the Engine Control Module (ECM) will check for leaks in the line between the fuel tank and EVAP canister purge volume control solenoid valve under the following vacuum test condition.

The vacuum cut valve bypass valve is opened to clear the line between the fuel tank and the EVAP canister purge volume control solenoid valve. The EVAP canister vent control valve will then be closed to shut the EVAP purge line off. The EVAP canister purge volume control solenoid valve is opened to depressurize the EVAP purge line using intake manifold vacuum. After this depressurization is implemented, the EVAP canister purge volume control solenoid valve will be closed.

 

Once again, you make a number of excellent points. You're right, I'm making the mistake of just grabbing information from the Internet without considering the source. I'm generally pretty methodical and pragmatic about this stuff, but looks like my desperation for a cost-effective solution leading me down path in a way not the most constructive. Thank you for catching me on that...

From your writings on the topic throughout the forum I've come to appreciate the complexity of fuel tank mechanics/physics/chemistry. Roughly 50 pages for two error codes further drives the point home. Probably going to sign up for a 2-day subscription to TIS and grab everything I can for this and other error codes. I found a mechanically inclined neighbor who, with the right knowledge, instructions and tools (along with knowledge of the closest salvage yard) can probably help me get this figured out.

Take care. Thank you again!

 

See attached.

 

Thanks for letting me know the copy/paste didn't go through. Probably screwed something up on my end. Apologies...

I'm now really focused on coming up with a methodical process for diagnosing the problem related to filling my gas tank. Pretty sure I have a good idea of the high-likelihood source of problems (Fuel valve cutoff valvue,

 

View attachment 214655 Thanks for letting me know the copy/paste didn't go through. Probably screwed something up on my end. Apologies...

I'm now really focused on coming up with a methodical process for diagnosing the problem related to filling my gas tank. Pretty sure I have a good idea of the high-likelihood source of problems (Fuel valve cutoff valvue,

View attachment 214655

 

Typed it up (looks like didn't finish, lol) and forgot to hit post. Sorry about that.

Any thoughts on best practices when to "clear" DTC codes? I recall when the engine was blown the guy at Pep Boys cleared out my codes (this is pre-Techstream days), which caused me to lose some potentially valuable info. So, I've gone to the other extreme and now don't clear any historical errors out unless specifically told to do so by a pro on this site.

This is what the Health Check looked like when I first started experiencing refueling problems (i.e., filling tank by partially pulling pump lever for slow fuel fill up, at the time no gas was flushed back out).

Haven't signed up for TIS just yet to get a firmer grasp of what's going on (or how to best diagnose the issues with the tank). However, at the moment my plan is to:

1. Check charcoal canister for fuel contamination (sounds like consensus opinion is if fuel reached canister then it needs to be replaced).

Not sure if this is a clear-cut issue, but it seems some view fuel simply coming into contact with the charcoal as being sufficient to undermine its efficacy, while others refer to a significant or perhaps longer-term fuel exposure (soaked) as rendering the canister damaged. Leaning toward if fuel came in contract with it, then likely needs to be replaced. The "Fuel Cutoff Valve Inspection" references "Drain the fuel from the valve and inspect Charcoal Container for excessive fuel.

Please let me know if it's a bad idea to get a used one from a salvage yard (maybe limited life expectancy so not good idea?)

2. Conduct Fuel Cutoff Valve Inspection following process referenced above.

3. Refuel Check Value Inspection, again, following process referenced above.

4 Read in related post the bladder is a common source of problems of this nature.

Any thoughts on prioritizing these items or other items to be added to the list?


View attachment 214683

 

chapmanf

What codes come up in this instance? I'm getting A0441 and A0455 atm. In your experience does this point to a potential bladder leak? With a bike tire you can put the tube in a partially-filled bathtub to find the leak. Assuming the same process doesn't apply to a bladder leak, lol. How do you identify if this is the case? Also, I'm assuming a "patch" isn't a viable solution so is replacement the only (or best) option?