Possible harness-damage problem for 04-06 Prius

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Paul R. Haller @ Oct 27 2006, 03:47 PM) [snapback]339567[/snapback]</div>

I forgot, I had wanted to address this too.

Besides the fact that this is pure speculation on your part, there's another point.

If no one had noticed the problem, and it caused injury or death in one case, Toyota would have been negligent in mis-assembling the part.

Now that it has been brought to their attention by multiple people through formal channels, if there is a problem, it becomes willful negligence. Believe me, there's a big difference in the liability issue now.

I don't really know if Toyota has done any analysis of the issue from a cost standpoint, but if they have they might want to re-run the numbers.

If they're afraid of another recall tarnishing their rep and adding to the boo-birds about slipping quality, they also might want to think about how much worse it could possibly be if something bad happens.

They would lose both the PR battle, and the faith of the Prius Faithful. Now that's a downside.

 

As I understand it, the majority of Toyata Prii have been assembled with the part unside down and backwards for three years....2004-2005-2006 and they are still assemblying the car this way.

*IF* it becomes an issue....that is going to look really, really bad.

Exactly how hard is it for them to flip the plate and turn it around and put it on right during a routine oil change as the cars come in? They won't get them all, but they'll get a lot of them that way. They wouldn't even have to do a "recall" or issue anything like the steering shaft thing. It could be a simple tech report thing adding it to a routine maintenance job. At NO CHARGE of course. How long does it take? 15 min? So what's the big deal. Just do it.

Or face the possible consequences.

I can see the headlines now:

"Toyota assembled Prius backwards for three years and they're still doing it."

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SoopahMan @ Oct 27 2006, 03:00 PM) [snapback]339579[/snapback]</div>

Not to mention that some of us aren't in a position to fix it ourselves.

I have to rely on the kindness of strangers. (and a checkbook.)

 

over 100,000 Prius assembled wrong and possibly one report of a problem. What's wrong with this picture? It's really a non issue. The stalling problem from an oil leak on the crank sensor is a far greater issue than this harness problem. The wire harness is initally taped and then a plastic sleeve is put over it and then re-taped. That could rub on the edge of the plate which is not nearly as sharp as the edge of the MG housing where it was machined. That edge is sharp enough to cut the tape and the plastic sleeve and the wires under it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Oct 28 2006, 12:16 AM) [snapback]339785[/snapback]</div>

That's not fear-mongering. It's a simple statement of fact.

And, personally I feel that taking due diligence steps to safeguard my family is never out of place. I'm sorry if you are bothered by it, but, well, that's tough.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Oct 28 2006, 01:48 PM) [snapback]340043[/snapback]</div>

The law requires a plaintiff to minimize the danger and the mitigate the damages before suing. When a plaintiff is aware of a dangerous problem, he or she must first attempt to fix it in order to prevent or minimize the injury. Conscious failure by the plaintiff to take steps to remedy the perceived dangerous condition will have a substantial, if not fatal, negative impact on the prospects of successful litigation.

Messages posted in this forum can be used by the defense to prove such ulterior motives.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Oct 28 2006, 04:48 PM) [snapback]340043[/snapback]</div>

Well, if you'll re-read what I wrote - if it's a genuine risk to damage the wiring harness (however small the risk is) due to an Assembly ERROR by Toyota

Note - If - However Small the Risk - I am in no way saying there is or is not a risk, or the magnitude of any such risk. I write and speak very carefully to say exactly what I mean.

I also never threatened a law suit. I promised one - IF there is a risk they are aware of and ignore, and IF it results in injury to me or mine.

Let's review what we know, what I've done, and what I want from Toyota, and you tell me how I'm 'fear mongering' in any way, and if so how.

There is reason to believe Toyota has mis-installed the piece. Let's review the evidence.

1) The Manual shows it as being mis-installed.

2) It obviously fits more correctly when installed properly.

3) I have it in writing from my dealer that it is mis-installed, but they will not touch it without instructions from Toyota. They clearly are aware of the potential liability issues inherent in this.

There is clearly an increased risk in the mis-installed orientation. The degree of increase and amount of risk is at issue, but it wouldn't take a second grader to recognize a quantifiable risk increase in this situation.

So, in this situation, I am now aware of the increased risk potential. It is incumbent on me to take all reasonable and prudent steps to mitigate the risk, or I would be culpably negligent in any adverse occurance.

So far, I have gone to the dealer. I will continue to progress through Toyota Corporate and if necessary any regulatory agencies required to reach a resolution.

So, what would I consider a resolution?

Toyota really has four options:

1) They can say the piece is not mis-installed and the manual is incorrect.

2) They can say that the mis-installation carries no added risk, if they are sure enough to think that is their best bet balanced against their risk.

3) They can mitigate the situation, either through installing the part correctly or putting some sort of protective sleeve around the wire bundle. Note that if they do this for one person, they are admitting it's a problem, and their liability should anything happen someone who's car they haven't fixed is greately increased. At that point they're in deep. Note also that if they have already mitigated this in some way for current vehicles, they have the same increased liability for any they have not fixed.

Any of those are valid choices. Option 4 - Do and Say Nothing - is not a valid choice, and that's what they are doing now.

What I expect from Toyota is an answer. Is it a problem? Yes or No will do. If it is a problem, then I expect a fix.

I'm not afraid, nor am I suggesting anyone else panic. What I am saying is I expect a response to a valid question that has possible safety implications for me and my family, and I will continue until I get one.

Until I have that answer, the ball is in my court for responsibility. I will not have done everything I can reasonably do to mitigate any risk until there is a response. Once I have that official response, I have done all I can reasonably do, and that's the end as far as I'm concerned unless further information comes out to raise further questions.

I did not ever state in any way what the level of risk is. I don't know. I do know it is increased, and therefore needs to be addressed. You are the one that has an opinion on the level of risk when you start presuming to determine who has a basis for concern. I posit that your statement quantifying the risk and telling people what they should and should not worry about is far more irresponsible than anything I have said because you have absolutely no way of knowing what the real risk is. You have an opinion, that's clear, but I don't believe that you are qualified to adequately determine the actual risk. No offense there, I'm not qualified either, that's why I won't say what I 'think' and why I expect an answer from those who are in a position to know.

I think you could reasonably call me a tad obsessive, and certainly relentless and implacable, but I have not in any way ever 'fear-mongered'. If you think otherwise, please explain.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Oct 28 2006, 07:29 PM) [snapback]340096[/snapback]</div>

Couple of reasons.

1) If I change the vehicle, I assume the risk, whatever it may be. That's not my job. It's Toyota's job to assemble the vehicle correctly.

2) If I 'fix' it, that fix is only for me, not for anyone else affected. IF it is a problem, Toyota needs to fix it for everyone and I am not being very responsible to the rest of humanity by only looking out for number one. As people keep repeating, not everyone reads PriusChat.

Whatever you may think of the evidence for or against a problem, there is enough evidence to raise the question. Once the question is raised, I want an answer. That's all. That's what I'm after and that's what I will continue to pursue.

If you want to tell me it's a stupid question, that's your prerogative, but I believe in situations like this there are no stupid questions, and that we have a right to expect an answer, and a duty to get one.

I suppose it's a truism that one mans fear-monger is another mans consumer-advocate.

I have a hunch there was some muttering in the corridors of Ford about those 'fear-mongers' worried about getting rear-ended in a pinto

Yeah, that's a cheap analogy, and hyperbolic, but the principle is the same, and, in the final analysis, this is also a matter of principle.

 

guys!!! this is getting way out of hand here.

the harness is taped thickly and tied in place so it's not just flopping around.

the tab is still in question. but the borderline-extreme paranoia reactions i'm seeing are really making me roll my eyes here. there is simply no reason to get this upset over this.

DH is going to call his southeast tech contact directly on monday (even though you're technically not exactly supposed to do that) to get a handle on this and hopefully put it to rest for good. kinda the pre-busy-season lull going on lately anyway.

till then... chill out, people!

 

After 50000miles on my 04 i inspected the harness in question. After carefull analysis, the harness was riding on the tab, however, there was no cut nor indentation on it. However, i did add 4 turns of insulated tape and 2 plastic electrical tie straps to it and secured it 2 inches away from tab...case closed.

 

ok, the tech guy is looking into this to find out whether the manual or the installation is correct. out of all the southeast states, there have been no reported instances of damage.

will hear back hopefully soon.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Oct 31 2006, 08:20 PM) [snapback]341654[/snapback]</div>

Thank you for following up, galaxee.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Oct 31 2006, 08:20 PM) [snapback]341654[/snapback]</div>

This Plate is referred to in 5 places in the service manual. Three (3)! of them show it as assembled, and these are two different drawings very clearly showing the tab pointing down as assembled in every 2004 - 2007 that I have seen reported. The other two places show the drawing hobbit had in the original thread that is far less obvious and shows the tab pointing up.

Here are all 5 of the references as found in the service manual on the techinfo site (2006 Model Year), The first three are the as assembled instructions:

[attachmentid=5550]

[attachmentid=5551]

[attachmentid=5552]

Now the last two, same drawing as hobbit showed:

[attachmentid=5553]

[attachmentid=5554]

As I said in an earlier post, the original engineer would much more likely have been monitoring the assembly line instructions than the service manual - and we see the service manual has it both ways! I do not believe anyone has a copy of the line instructions.

Also, hardly anyone has mentioned or emphasized that the bolts holding the plate are two of the transaxel mounting bolts and must be torqued correctly. We probably have people who flipped the plate and left a far more serious condition by not attending to this detail. The average torque wrench used for wheel bolts doesn't operate in this range of torque setting. I have a second wrench for lower torque settings.

Finally, here is a picture of the plate and cable on my 2006 (Barb's 2005 is the same):

[attachmentid=5555]

Note that the tab is covering a pointed bit on the engine that has a sharper edge than the plate. Due to the angle of the cable, it would touch only the nice rounded edge of the plate and not its sharp backside. However, you can see that under the taped section of the harness, there is a rigid sleeve that protects the harness just near the plate and pointy edge of the engine. And on top of that, neither Barb's 2005 or my 2006 have enough play in the cable that either car has even the smallest nick in the tape, let alone the sleeve, harness cover, or wires inside.

As I said earlier:

1. Toyota has fixed the problem - the harness is reinforced over this area, at least in 2005 and later.

2. It is by no means certain that the plate is on backwards.

3. If you want to flip the plate and gain 1 to 2 mm of additional clearance before the harness hits the now exposed pointy bit, please be sure to torque the bolts correctly - this is noted in every part of the manual that mentions the plate (and in the torque settings list at the end of the manual!).

- Tom

 

thanks for the info, tom.

it's gonna take a response from someone at toyota for everyone here to calm down though... you know, one conflicting reference and there's a huge danger under the hood.

we agree with your conclusion, and i think i've mentioned other places that DH has rewritten half the repair manual rebuild instructions for the new tacoma engine as the first tech in the country to do a compete teardown and rebuild. the repair manual is not infallible.

 

Evan -

I like your level-headed thinking. I refer you to your quote made on 9/25/06: "I think it is reasonable that folks that have their undies in a knot over it can go ahead and switch the plate around on their own, but it's not reasonable to panic about it."

I tend to agree with this philosophy EXCEPT for the fact that the Toyota manual shows it mounted "the right way." It seems most if not all late model Prius' have it WRONG!

I've already reacted to this possible hazard by switching my plate. Some guys claim it's easy. It is not easy. You really need to put the car on ramps or put it on a lift to create access. There is not a lot of room to swing your wrench even then. And those bolts are cinched down TIGHT! Yes - - I do feel better.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(fphinney @ Oct 31 2006, 11:37 PM) [snapback]341735[/snapback]</div>

and how do you know this? what if the manual is wrong? the repair manual is not infallible, as i mentioned above. tom also shows you that the repair manual conflicts with itself and in 3 of 5 cases shows it installed as is on the car.

you did use the correct torque on those bolts, and didn't just crank em back down, right? take a closer look at Tom_06's post. worth reading a couple of times.

 

On my 2006, assembled 12/26/05, I found my plate installed "upside down" (depending on your point of view).

I'm only posting this as another confirmation that these occurances are not limited to just the 04 and 05 model years, but include the 06 as well.

I had the car in the air, and looked at it carefully, and I would have to agree with Hobbit in that the TAB seems to have a home and a purpose when oriented toward the top, instead of the bottom. Likewise, the circular embossment on the plate appears to have a home in the hole when the plate is flipped. These two clues make the plate very much appear to be installed backward.

Yet there is no denying the most recent service manual pictures posted, that conflict with the obvious observations. And there is no denying that more people have found their plate "upside down" rather than "right side up". In fact, it appears that few, if any, have found their plate "right side up" from the factory.

So, this is definately a debate. But it isn't critical, due to the harness protection. I added another layer, but did not reverse the plate, despite having the pnuematic tools and lift to make it easier.

I'm kind of waiting to see what more info galaxee and her DH find out, first.