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ECU swap?

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Technical Discussion' started by BiaoH, Apr 14, 2022.

  1. BiaoH

    BiaoH Junior Member

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    I recently got a 2010 gen3 Prius with 217k miles. Not starting (I don't even hear the engine crank, only some electric current noise) but the dash shows the HV battery has more than half charged and the 12V battery is in good condition and fully charged (I took it off and used a CTEK charger to fully charge and recondition it). I have a small OBD2 CX(not techstream) and hooked it up and shows P0335 crankshaft position sensor DTC. Cleared the code, tried to start and again the P0335 showed up. I took the sensor off and measured the resistance, showed about 2kOhm at cold so within spec. I tested the wiring harness from the sensor to the ECM and it's all good. So according the repair manual, I should replace the sensor first and then if it doesn't work I should replace the ECM.

    So now my question is: If I buy a used ECM(ECU) from ebay with exactly the same part number, is it going to be a plug-and-play direct swap or I need something to reprogram it?
     
  2. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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    yes... as long as it's a functional ECU it will work. It's why we can swap battery packs on cars without much effort beyond nuts and bolts.
     
  3. mr_guy_mann

    mr_guy_mann Senior Member

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    Well, ECM failures (on Toyotas) are pretty rare. It set a code that says "I didn't see the crank sensor signal that I expected to see (WHEN I expected it to be there)". The best way to diagnose this would be to use a scope to view the signal as the ECM does.

    There's more to that circuit than just the sensor. The wiring and connectors have to be intact and not damaged or shorted. (Yes) the ECM has to be good. The sensor has to be properly mounted with correct air gap to the tone ring on the crankshaft. The tone rind has to be undamaged. AND THE TONE RING (crankshaft) HAS TO BE SPINNING.

    Add your comment about unusual sound when trying to ready/start the car- I would wonder if something between the trans and ICE crankshaft had broken? Maybe trans input shaft or damper.

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
  4. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Come to think of it, I remember at least one other thread here where somebody's transmission input shaft or damper was shot, and MG1 just spun without turning the crankshaft, and a crankshaft sensor code was what showed up.
     
  5. mr_guy_mann

    mr_guy_mann Senior Member

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  6. BiaoH

    BiaoH Junior Member

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    I appreciate the thoughts and here's a more detailed diagnosis information after I received the mini VCI and could read the codes.

    Regarding the crankshaft position sensor, I tested the sensor resistance, wiring harness all good. I also used my hand to feel the tone ring and it feels normal to me.

    I hooked up techstream and found there are a few permanent codes in the engine ECU including P0117(coolant temp sensor) and P0300,P0302 and P0303 misfires that I assume should not cause the engine not starting. I did not find the P0335 code with the techstream (strange though). The hybrid system is giving me a P0A0F engine failed to start code.

    I put it in maintenance mode (inspection mode) and attempted to start the engine. I did hear some noise like the transmission is trying to turn but not any cranking noise.

    I also did try this: cleared all code and start the car. It shows ready and I put in drive and press gas pedal. The car moves a few feet and then throws the error message "check hybrid system" and refuse to move any further. I tried to put it to drive and it gives a pretty loud clunk.

    Another thing I noticed is that a couple days ago when I attempted to start it, the instrument showed the HV battery has about 4-5 bars of charge, but today when I look at it again it only has 1 bar left. Techstream shows it has 20% charge and after I tried the inspection mode it dropped to about 19%.

    My guess is: 1 the HV battery is too weak to power the motor to crank the engine (I doubt if this could happen as it shows about 20% charge left but the sudden drop of charge makes me wonder). 2 inverter problem? 3 trans input shaft?
     
  7. BiaoH

    BiaoH Junior Member

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    My current plan is to open the HV battery and measure the cells, and possibly find something to charge/balance it before next try. Is there any way to tell the problem of the trans input shaft? I tried to rotate the engine by hand and it seems to be rotating fine.
     
  8. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Hook up Techstream and look at P0A0F. If it has a freeze frame, compare the "engine revolution", "motor(MG2) revolution", and "generator(MG1) rev" values.

    With the car presumably stationary while cranking (MG2 at 0 RPM), the engine RPM has to be 0.28 times whatever the MG1 RPM is. Any other value (zero, I suspect) means busted metal bits somewhere, and the engine is not being cranked.
     
  9. BiaoH

    BiaoH Junior Member

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    That is exactly the information I need. I will take a look this evening and post back.

    Just a little confused, it's the generator(MG1) that's being powered to crank the engine while the MG2 is actually the wheel speed? I assume the MG1 points to the motor generator that's powered by the HV battery and inverter? If the MG2 is actually showing wheel speed then it's funny to name it motor lol!
     
  10. BiaoH

    BiaoH Junior Member

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    OK so I just read the freeze frame data and it looks like the MG1 is showing around 3-4krpm while the engine speed is 0. So it's the connection between engine and transaxle that's shot. I'm gathering the parts to do the repair so hope folks can help with some questions.

    1. Is it almost sure the clutch damper or there could be something else? I tried to source the clutch damper part number 31270-47060 and US dealers sell for $700-1000 while there are sellers on ebay that sell for about $300-400 shipped from Japan (takes about 3 weeks to get to me). Folks have any other recommendations? I personally don't want to go with a used one as it seems this thing is subject to use...
    2. I'm asssuming the best method to swap the clutch damper is to pull the engine from the top?
    3. I'm thinking about also doing the head gasket and timing chain at the same time, so I'm considering if there's a possibility to do this work without a crane -- basically after removing the intake, exhaust, cylinder head and timing chain is it possible to lift the engine block out of the bay with probably 2 men? It looks like the 2ZR-FXE engine weighs about 214lbs so after removing these parts and drain the oil and coolant I'm estimating the cylinder block to weight about 100-150lbs which seems doable. If that's possible I can save the $250 cost to buy a crane from harbor freight (I have bought one before to remove the engine of a mercedes but didn't carry it with me during my last move...) Any thoughts?
     
  11. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    You can find lots of threads (and other resources) that explain how the Prius powertrain works. It has one gasoline engine and two MGs. That's three different RPMs but only two degrees of freedom; if you know what any two are, then you know what the remaining one has to be (unless there are busted metal bits).

    MG2 connects directly to the final drive, so its RPM is always directly proportional to the road speed. The gasoline engine can be either stopped, or somewhere between 1000 and 5300 RPM. MG1 can freely operate anywhere in the range −10000 to +10000 RPM or so, to make the relationship work out.

    In this thread you can download a nomograph that visually shows the relationships between the three RPMs. It was made for the Gen 2 Prius, but it gives you a pretty good idea. A few details change for Gen 3, but they didn't change the tooth counts in the power split device, so the first "controlling equation" shown there is the same (and also the last one, which is nothing but the first one rearranged).

    When you pick values for any two of (MG1, MG2, engine) RPM, the one you didn't pick must lie on the same straight line across the nomograph.
     
  12. BiaoH

    BiaoH Junior Member

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    Understand. The freeze frame is from the engine start request so I assume it was trying to spin the engine to start (the data shows engine speed request 1000+ that proves it). Unless there's any internal mechanical issue in the transmission I can't find other explanations why the engine stayed at 0, other than a failed clutch damper.

    Regarding the parts sourcing, it looks like 13451-37080 is the flywheel assembly, which seems to contain both the flywheel and the clutch damper and is actually cheaper than the 31270-47060 clutch damper... Weird.

    Also I'm thinking if I should just buy a used engine from a later year model and just swap in other than messing around with this engine? I heard the MY2010 has known piston ring issues...
     
  13. BiaoH

    BiaoH Junior Member

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    Oh I forgot to mention, the freeze frame data shows MG1 about 4000rpm, MG2 and ICE both 0.
     
  14. whazzup

    whazzup New Member

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    Sorry to jump your post. I think my ECM is bad and I'm thinking of trying one off of Ebay since they are so cheap. I just want to clarify that I wont need a dealer to reprogram the used ECM to my vehicle. Some of the sellers are saying that reprogramming is required.

    To make a long story short, I replaced my head gasket and forgot to hook up the ground cable on my valve cover. I drove the car for about 30 miles and it seemed to run fine. I started to get multiple codes off the CEL P0016, P0351,0352,0353,0354, 0032, 0500, C0070, 0037, 0036. I saw that I had forgotten the ground cable and reattached it. My feeling is that I burned up the ECM since it was trying to pull ground from somewhere else and the engine itself was not properly grounded.

    Anybody have any thoughts on this?
     
  15. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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    That's a lot of codes... Have you ruled out something beyond the ground cable? Like a plug coming loose or a plug shorting out? Any chance you got a friend who owns the same car you can swap the ECU with to confirm?

    As for reprogramming, people talk about that way more often than it's required. Everything is pretty much plug in play, though their have been some Toyota recalls over the year, as well as some repairs that a Toyota dealer can do the updates firmware.
     
  16. whazzup

    whazzup New Member

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    I purchased one off eBay and it’s on its way. I agree that is a lot of codes. I made sure all the plugs clicked when I connected them.
    It’s weird that it ran fine for 30 miles. That’s why I’m assuming the ecu burned up.
    I’ve had many issues with loose grounds on different vehicles in the past years and learned they are very sensitive to not having a good ground.
     
  17. whazzup

    whazzup New Member

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    I was reading one of the above posts by Mr. Guy Man I and he mentions the correct gap for the crank position sensor.
    I’m wondering if I put too much silicone on the timing cover and some of it is blocking the sensor down there.

    I guess I’ll have to remove the timing cover if this ECU doesn’t work.
     
  18. whazzup

    whazzup New Member

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    Well the used ECM didn't work. I get the check hybrid system warning and 6 codes. P0031, P0351, P0352, P0353, P0354, and P3147. If no one has any suggestions, I will be removing the timing cover to check the marks on the chain, tensioner, and anything else I screwed up in there.