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How I Recondition Cells

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Main Forum' started by tracy ing, Jun 19, 2022.

  1. tracy ing

    tracy ing Active Member

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    I had 5.9 Ah on this module, best I could do, Then I used the voodoo spouted on this forum, low voltage crystal removal, look at the success story below
    Less capacity and lowered voltage under load.
    You all do what you want lol.
    RUINED A PERFECTLY GOOD MODULE
    NEVER, EVER, HAVE I SEEN A MODULE REVERSE IN THIS MANNER

    It used to look like the far right yellow line.
    Voltage is pressure, pressure is torque, less voltage, less torque
    To counteract the loss of torque requires insertion of more amps (gas pedal on the prius) insertion of more amps is faster burn less range (like using corn in your gasoline instead of gasoline)

    P.S. we dont burn corn here in anything we own.



    upload_2022-7-26_10-22-18.png
     
    #61 tracy ing, Jul 26, 2022
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  2. Prius92

    Prius92 Member

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    You...did discharge at under 650MAh right? You run a high chance of polarity reversal if you discharge above that.
     
  3. tracy ing

    tracy ing Active Member

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  4. tracy ing

    tracy ing Active Member

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    Yes I followed the directions on this site after looking at multiple posts, well below that amount during discharge. If I had a cell reversal then it would have had anything in it to measure lol
     
  5. JohnPrius3005

    JohnPrius3005 Active Member

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    For what it's worth, and many people have vastly more experience than me so I make no claim to be an experienced "judge" of anything, it appears to me that, Tracy, you have a researched and verified method/algo which works to detect bad modules and reject them before wasting time and effort, and a method/algo for restoring those modules which can be restored without significant risk of damaging them. These methods are based upon your own work, and that of professional, scientific researchers and fully conform to manufacturers' recommendations and limitations. I'll take that as the way to go, and a well reasoned balance of risk/reward. And thank you for the detailed explanations. This has been a fascinating learning experience for me, and hopefully will save some people from wasting money on "restored" modules which were "restored" and checked by those with vastly less skill, expertise or comprehension. I'm extremely skeptical that virtually anyone at any Toyota dealership knows anything about this, or understands the HV battery chemistry at all!! Hence, "you need a brand new traction battery" is their only possible response. And the wild west of "battery restoration shops" is no more easy to navigate. With some effort someone could read this entire thread and develop a list of questions to ask and receive suitable answers to from any place they might be contemplating buying a restored battery. Aloha!!
     
  6. tracy ing

    tracy ing Active Member

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    Half way through, (well 1/2 through phase 2 so 75% done actually)

    THE FOLLOWING IS ON A KNOWN GOOD CELL THAT HAS BEEN PREVIOUSLY CYCLED BACK INTO SOME SORT OF "GOODNESS"

    Step 1- Discharge to 6 volts at a 5 amp load
    Then, repeat at a 2.5 amp load
    Then, a 1.6 amp load
    Then, a 0.8 amp load
    Then, a 0.4 amp load
    Then a 0.20 amp load
    Then a 0.10 amp load TO 5.9 VOLTS.

    Step 2 - Charge at 0.1 amps until voltage reads greater than 7.1 volts and less than 7.2

    Step 3 - Charge at 3 amps and insert 6 amp hours (approx 2 hours)

    Step 4 - Charge at 1 amp until EOC is reached, this typically means inserting 2.5 amp hours on a GOOD module.(approx 2.5 hours)

    Step 5 - Wait one week and discharge at 6.5 amps to 6 volts and record that capacity (looking for excess self discharge.

    RECORD THE VOLTAGE AT 4 MINUTES POST DISCHARGE STEP 5, SHOULD BE 7 VOLTS OR SO, HIGHER VOLTAGES IN EXCESS OF 7.2 IE 7.3, 7.4 MAY INDICATE A DEHYDRATED CELL.

    Step 6 - Charge at 6.5 amps for total of 3 Ah added to the module

    Step 7 - Continue charge to EOC at 2 amps (approx 8 Ah TOTAL Step 6 & 7)

    Step 8 - Discharge to 6 volts at a 6.5 amp load record that Ah delivered, this is the capacity at 1C.

    PORTIONS OF THE ABOVE COULD BE USED ON AN UNKNOWN CELL, SPECIFICALLY DO NOT TRY TO ADD THE TOTAL 8 AH INTO THE MODULE FROM STEPS 6 AND 7, IN THIS CASE USE THE RESULTS FROM THE OUTPUT OF STEP 5 TO ADJUST THE AMPS IN FOR STEPS 6 AND 7 LOWER IF NEEDED. RINSE REPEAT

    upload_2022-7-26_22-36-36.png

    upload_2022-7-26_22-37-33.png
     
    #66 tracy ing, Jul 26, 2022
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  7. tracy ing

    tracy ing Active Member

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    You are correct on the dealerships and most of the rebuilders.

    The big mistake Toyota made was in not designing the modules to be serviceable and in not setting up SOME large dealers as service centers to provide module level service with SLIDE IN modules. Not knowing if the public would accept these hybrids probably factored into all those decisions which would have added more costs, but benefited everyone long term, bean counters, they ruin everything.
     
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  8. tracy ing

    tracy ing Active Member

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    Translation, U.S. cleaning MAY help break down resistance in the cathode anode but doing it for more than 6 hours may destroy the module, this 6 hours was based on an unknown size module/cell at an unknown U.S. frequency. I have requested the full text of the paper from the author in China, good luck lol.

    Another option is sulfuric acid

    Ultrasonic method was used to recycle nickel/metal hydride (MH-Ni) batteries under undestroyed state. The effects of ultrasonic on electrode material performance of MH-Ni batteries were investigated by using SEM, EDAX and XRD. The results indicate that with the ultrasonic time increasing, there are obvious dispersing phenomena in the positive and negative electrodes. This can make the inertia oxidation layer break off from the negative electrode, and the fresh surface comes out. These changes can increase the reaction centers of the active materials, as well as improve the catalysis capability and discharge ability. But if the ultrasonic time is too long, it can make the active materials reunite and accelerate its pulverization, and lead to its degradation. The improvement of electrochemical performance for MH-Ni batteries is obvious by ultrasonic for 6 h continuously.
     
  9. tracy ing

    tracy ing Active Member

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    MODULE SWELLING - should be avoided, place a business card just barely into the top sides of the module, if it falls out, stop charging for 3 hours (assuming you were charging at 5 to 6.5 amps) . If nearing end of charge at 2 amps or less, you have to decide, is it close, or should I stop allow a cool down and restart the low charge to achieve end of charge and internal cell balance. Common sense rules
     
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  10. JohnPrius3005

    JohnPrius3005 Active Member

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    Yeah. Built in obsolescence is a reality. I know the manufacturers of the planes I flew would far rather they were sold for scrap and made into beer cans once the first owner sells. Used things constitute competition in the eyes of those whose business revolves around sell new production. For those of us wishing to repair and keep using the items we buy this is an anathema, but it's undeniably reality. One plane manufacturer whose products I flew even set up a 1-900 (you pay per minute for the call!!) service line for products they felt were "obsolete".

    So similarly Toyota has no wish to extend the life of their cars, really. Or to make it easy to do so.

    All these ridiculous reality though create opportunities, so there is that ;-)
     
  11. Prius92

    Prius92 Member

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    You are doing way, way, way, way more than is needed, and wasting time as a result.

    This step does not even make sense, are we discharging at 2.5 to 0.1 amps starting at 6 all the way "down" to 5.9V, or are we just randomly changing the current loads 7 times?

    The discharge cutoff of these modules is 1V per cell, 6V total. Between 6V and 5.9 volts, you should not be using anything more than 650MAh to discharge, because polarity reversal can start as soon as 5.9V it too large of current load is applied. It is recommended by Energizer and other NiMH manufactures as well as hybrid battery re-builders to not exceed 650MAh when discharging below 6V.

    Waiting a week to discharge is going to completely throw off your capacity results, because discharge occurs as soon as a charge current is lifted. I find waiting about 1 hour is sufficient for the excess voltage to "level off" from charging.

    A wasteful step. I've charged many modules at a full 5A when they read under 6V without issue. The only thing I could see causing problems is if somehow one of the cells reversed polarity and you are now backfeeding current. The only time you are going to cause damage is DIScharging at too much current below the cutoff of 6V, or over charging once the EOC is reached.

    Once the end of charge is reached, unless your hobby charger can detect the delta peak (which many of them, including mine..miss), you are going to be overheating your modules because once EOC is reached, current is "bled off" as HEAT. C/10 is recommended, or in the case of a prius module, 650MAh.

    I find that charging at 5A to about 7.8V (1.3 full charge x6 cells), then trickle charging at .6A overnight causes no noticeable swelling, and even when left on all night as this amperage, the modules are room temperature, no heat whatsoever. In fact some NiMH manufacturers keep their batteries on an infinite trickle charge of C/10 until they are ready to be shipped off.

    Also..make sure you record your voltages WITH A MULTIMETER because hobby chargers measure voltage at the circuit board, not the leads themselves, and can sometimes be an entire volt higher than what my multimeter reads.
     
  12. JohnPrius3005

    JohnPrius3005 Active Member

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    Again, its the line between cost and benefit. Even your process is pretty extended and time consuming. Of course some greater automation is possible, at higher capital cost. As they say, "if it was easy, everyone would do it". At some point it becomes far more economical to just buy a new module (assuming availability and access).
     
  13. JohnPrius3005

    JohnPrius3005 Active Member

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    You guys have some strong words for critiquing each other's methodology... ;-) Although obviously your goals are aligned - properly reconditioned modules.

    Do both of you have similar graphing that can be compared, at least to the point the "reconditioning" is completed?

    Beyond that, looking at longevity of the reconditioned modules, and/or subsequent failures, is possibly too subjective to be meaningful.
     
  14. tracy ing

    tracy ing Active Member

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    lol 1 900 pay as you go, yes I fly too, thats why I had a handy dandy tool to swage the battery wires lol



    Read a book, taught myself lol
     
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  15. tracy ing

    tracy ing Active Member

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    automation, yeah, i do automation, for 20 years, i could automate all of this from start to finish, go get the funding :)

    I also have a one man no touch hay making operation, I never touch a bale of hay and I am the only person involved from cutting to stacking lol, i specialize in eliminating labor, people hate me

     
    #75 tracy ing, Jul 27, 2022
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  16. tracy ing

    tracy ing Active Member

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    They were all mostly running like 3 Ah when I started, many had been conditioned 3 years ago and then sat. some were ones I just got from someone that pulled them, all were unusable without some intervention cycling and grading.

    Lol on the other laptop that is used for all of this, are hundreds of graphs going back years. Insight and Prius modules / sticks
     
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  17. Prius92

    Prius92 Member

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    No offense, but those welds are atrocious. Are you even doing any surface prep? You should be going down to bare steel wherever you weld, and a good 1" around the welding area if paint or rust is coating the steel.

    weld.png

    This area concerns me the most. You need to be welding in one continuous straight line. This looks like someone stopped every 5 seconds and restruck the arc. There is also way too much weld there. You either need to up your amperage or adjust your spool speed.

    Welding is melting the metals together, not adding a giant puddle of metal goop.
     
  18. alftoy

    alftoy Senior Member

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    Tracy the mad scientist at work. I was interested in your methodology but too much static, tangents and lols. No wonder THAT GUY got under your skin. You may have some good ideas, just a little too scatterbrained. Giving up trying to follow you. The welding probably summarizes your approach.

    Better to follow this thread, the latest 30 pages will do

    Gen II Prius Individual Battery Module Replacement | PriusChat
     
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  19. tracy ing

    tracy ing Active Member

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    The waiting a week is to identify any modules suffering from EXCESS DISCHARGE that would then create havoc in the pack later when the car is parked an extended period.

    I like my work above :)

    Proof is in the results, most of these modules have previously been restored and placed in service for tens of thousands of miles by me, never did they provide 6.5 Ah capacity, now most do :)

    For those that did so, I am glad you unfollowed me, I recommend others/everyone do the same :)
     
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  20. tracy ing

    tracy ing Active Member

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    Lmao YEAH MAN I AM NO WELDER

    But what I am is someone that can find and execute a solution that works

    Three years later, that hay fork still works :)
    And it has saved me HUNDREDS of hours of paid labor :)
    I therefore grade that welding a huge success :)

    P.S. That terrible welding has lifted and stacked 5,400 bales of hay, TWICE, onto the trailer, off of the trailer, maybe you cant rate good welds from bad welds ?
     
    #80 tracy ing, Jul 27, 2022
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2022
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