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Differences between V and non V CVT?

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Technical Discussion' started by black_jmyntrn, Mar 28, 2023.

  1. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Look again at the diagrams in post #31. What you're looking at here is PNC 35790D, which goes on the crankshaft before the flywheel does. Next goes the flywheel, which looks like PNC 13405 in that other drawing I linked. Then, back to the first drawing, the input damper, 31270, bolts to the flywheel, just as it did in older Prii.

    What is that number, if I may ask?

    Were there any years of the Prime before 2017? The diagrams I linked in #31 are for 2017.

    I'm going to contain my excitement for as long as I don't know the part number of the "transmission ECU" that you got. :)

    As far as I know, that cool feature of the v doesn't involve extra hardware in the transaxle, but just a SMOP in the ECU.
     
  2. black_jmyntrn

    black_jmyntrn Senior Member

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    hmmmm... okay! I will let folks know, about the next Prime they engine change to let me know to visit for investigation.



    see the link below
    https://black.jmyntrn.com/2023/03/02/prius-phev-repair-cronicles/

    also, youll notice.. the power control module was swapped. no errors in tech stream just the car is still stuck in a fake ready mode and wont go into park. thought changing the two ecus mentioned would fix it.. nope.. issa why now diving into the CVT stuff as mine appears to have leaked transmission fluid after a month of not being driven since the accident, only towed. never had the front tires drag either. funny though. after the accident it would not go into neutral for a while.. then many techstream error clears later and the paper clip on obd2.. now its locked as in park and will not go into neutral.

    not that I m aware. we have the first 2017 but... didnt the Gen 4 start in 2016? Now.. could be that my source... no... I was going to say never swapped a Prime before but I'm going to check, if so.. it would explain why he'd never seen it.


    so folks say im crazy for my thoughts of what Im attempting but... that excitement I hope you have, jut imagine how much is in me and why I'm pushing all this forward?


    ahhhh I see said the blind man! So, will hunt for a V ecu now![/QUOTE]
     
    #42 black_jmyntrn, Apr 2, 2023
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2023
  3. black_jmyntrn

    black_jmyntrn Senior Member

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    ah yes, I did understand that part, I think me seeing two models I'd assume have different transmission control ecus didn't... trying to weight on the site of the theories working in the direction I need this to go. :)
     
  4. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    As I kind of suspected, the ECU that you found to have the same part number was the "transmission control ECU". That doesn't surprise me at all, because that ECU's one and only job is to move in and out the chunk of metal that stops things when you park. Those details don't change between the HEV and PHEV.

    I am pretty sure you will find that the power management control ECU—the one that's behind everything else the inverter and transaxle do for starting and driving—does not have the same numbers for HEV and PHEV. In fact, for 2017 Prius and 2017 Prime, I already gave you the links back in #36 showing they are different.

    That's what I was getting at with the "if true" part:

    I'd be happy to follow you and think outside the box, but it's also worth taking the time to make sure you haven't jumped to conclusions based on the part numbers of the wrong ECU.

    Because the car doesn't have a steering column lock, the transmission control ECU and parking mechanism are the car's anti-theft provision. That ECU and some others in the car, like the one for the key fob code, have special procedures when replacing to convince them that you are not a chop shop and they belong in the same car. Might be worth looking back over the manual to see if you could have missed one of those steps.

    Gen 4 started in 2016 but I think Prime came a year later. I can't find any Prime stuff on parts.toyota.com before 2017.
     
  5. black_jmyntrn

    black_jmyntrn Senior Member

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    Thing is, I did swap the power management control ecu, in my attempts to rule out an ecu is the issue. Even with having the car unplugged from 12v over night then the paperclip in place for at least 30 minutes so they all sync and the same error codes were present for the PMC ECU from the factory and the one from the non PHEV.

    Also, the work involved on side projects from the collective minds appears to indicate the car does adjust when you raise total cubic inches past 1.9L, and in a few other trials, they say didn't throw ECU errors. Ill get to the bottom of it all soon, trying to debate on just getting the normal Prius CVT working on the 1.8l just so the car is driveable. then dismantle my old cvt and the V to have the guts which get sent off for LSD. Now, when the LSD gets in hand, I should have all of the clutch plate components to pair it all up wih the lightened flywheel and pressure plate then bolt to the 2.0l to then install... plus the V extra cooling panel (which I've 3D scanned) just. I didn't know basically the whole front clip comes off to swap the CVT... heh. so Id end up depending on the timing, doing a full clip swap twice in less than 4-6 weeks.

    The time it took me to remove the parking prawl at pick your part made me not want to attempt at swapping it on my car. nope! do you know the secret to losing and tightening the bolts on the parking prawl?
     
  6. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    I have the same understanding of this feature. Pretty sure I read it in one of the New Car Features pdfs Toyota has published, but I haven't got it handy now.
     
  7. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    So there are two different questions in play here, and one is about why your Frankenprius doesn't want to park/unpark yet, and one is about whether a non-Prime ECU would have any clue what to do with a Prime's sprag clutch.

    You seem to have quoted me talking about the has-a-clue part, but your reply seems more to do with the why-stuck-in-park part.

    Knowing that you've already tried a couple different power management control ECUs without solving the stuck part may be important information on the progress in troubleshooting that issue. But it doesn't offer much to support the idea that these ECUs are interchangeable and know how to work each others' cars. Indeed, although at least you aren't getting different error codes, before showing that this car will even move yet, we really don't know much about how this different ECU will handle all the details of driving it.

    Just as we found in #36 that there is no part number overlap between the HEV control ECUs between 2017 Primes an non-Primes, we can easily see that the Gen 3 power management control ECU you installed here is one of the two part numbers possible for a 2013 Gen 3 plug-in, and there is no overlap between those two and the three part numbers possible for a 2013 non-plug-in. (And in Gen 3 there were fewer differences between plug-in and non-plug-in; the plug-in didn't have a sprag clutch yet.)


    SWITCH & RELAY & COMPUTER. 2013 Toyota Prius | Toyota Parts Center Online



    SWITCH & RELAY & COMPUTER. 2013 Toyota Prius | Toyota Parts Center Online
     
    #47 ChapmanF, Apr 2, 2023
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2023
  8. black_jmyntrn

    black_jmyntrn Senior Member

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    just got royally confused. so..

    on the clue and stuck in park... lost me on the clue part.. it's the general belief it's stuck in park now because I fried the CVT. In the accident, a couple blue wires from the fuse box were severed where they come together and bolt to the fender ground. finding the short in the harness where the wires were clearly krispy burnt that goes from CVT & O2 then up and over the motor/cvt to the front area was repaired and after a paperclip reset the car was no longer "stuck in neutral". After changing and unpligging multiple ECU's still no neutral with the screen yelling about put the car in park, figured to replace the CVT when after over a month of not moving and a couple tow truck rides later I noticed transmission fluid dripping off metal engine splash shield. This was after the greatest Prius mind tells me weeks Prior you might just need to rebuild the CVT... he was right.

    so yes, I know no additional error codes are a good sign but until it's driving still a theory and we've been trying to flush out any and all with my build.

    Whats funny is, how Toyota does this okay! This isn't my first rodeo in how what they put online and in docs for the 2013 PHEV isnt what's out there. Heck, even the color of the wires from the fuse box if not using my vin won't show the proper color cables this one technician helping me on the phone had.
    heh... 6 socal dealers and only 1 was able to find the part number for my car's wire harness. If I would've bought the harness from them after they told me it was the right one and in actuality, it wasn't, to then not be able to return it as it's an electrical item. the PHEV with LED and PCS wire harness doesn't show up for them. That to say, I'm skeptical about their documents and part numbers these days because the Transmission ECUs you say is no overlap. How is that possible? literally, they are the same, and yet Toyota never makes mention on it.
     
  9. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Neither one of us ever said that. Remember that the "Transmission ECU" is the one that does absolutely nothing besides move the parking pawl in and out, and there is no reason it would need to be different, and that's the one you had in your photo showing it wasn't different.

    The "power management control ECU" is a whole different ECU, remember? And you found out it has different part numbers, and I found out it has different part numbers, and Toyota shows it has different part numbers. And that's the one that controls absolutely everything else about the transaxle, except for the parking pawl, which is the transmission ECU's job.
     
  10. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    Need to watch WeberAuto videos on the transaxles and the Prime. The sprag does allow higher mg1 rpm and the latest Prime allows mg1 to add drive power.

    The v pitch and bounce is achieved by regulating electric motor torque and via brake ecu control. Can't say I have ever felt the interaction but the v does ride better at highway speeds.

    The idea of modifying or mix and matching ecus seems out of reach as Toyota keeps the code locked down.
     
  11. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    This particular claim is one I would love to know more about, if you've found a particular Weber Auto video where it is explained. If you know the rough timing into the video, even better.
     
  12. black_jmyntrn

    black_jmyntrn Senior Member

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    on the new gen stuff yes, no can bus... the generation of ecu's I'm working with I do not have a roadblock to modify the main ECU, right now the attempt is to bolt it all
     
  13. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    After a quick review of the P610 Deep Dive (I remembered watching the full thing at some earlier point), I think I'm sticking to my story.

    The sprag clutch prevents the engine from spinning backwards, period; there is nothing about the sprag clutch that changes the way MG1 is connected to the PSD, or its rpm relationships to engine and road speed, familiar from the good old Prius nomogram.

    Making higher road speeds possible in EV requires higher MG1 rpm, and the thing that allows higher MG1 rpm is ... building an MG1 that can withstand higher rpm. It's up to 17,000 in this version, nearly triple what it was in Gen 2. That's apparently thanks to basic mechanical refinements like weight reduction and the big compression nut Prof. Kelly reads about from the Toyota paper at around 1:34:12 into the video.

    The part of the magic made possible by the sprag clutch is that now MG1 can be used to contribute motive torque. Without the sprag clutch, that would just spin the engine backwards.
     
  14. Tim Jones

    Tim Jones Senior Member

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    The prius will NEVER be a Tesla eater....
    Have you rode in a Tesla?
    I have been in 4 different ones and they are 10 times faster than any prius.
     
    CR94 likes this.
  15. black_jmyntrn

    black_jmyntrn Senior Member

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    the way I figure it... model 3 , non AWD standard range hahaha I didn't say PLAID! You need twin turbo hellcat for all that jazz. Yes have driven, the first was the p100D with the sun roof, back then we couldn't get traction control off or something wouldn't allow us to do burn outs. That was the day I learned of another Ludacris and it's not a rapper...
    Model 3 283hp 330lb ft. 0-60 5.3- 5.0 single rear motor.
    Prius PHEV 268hp 260lb ft 0-60 TBD single rear motor with Hybrid MAX motor in the front 340hp 400lb ft
    --combined 608hp 660lb ft 0-60 TBD
    2.0L 172hp 154lb ft
    --combined 512hp 554lb ft
    Numbers-wise, just using the rear motor planned we should make light work of the non AWD Model 3.

    Now, I need to get the 2.0l working first, that's, for now, simpler since I have it on hand, and the plan to get it working, hence this thread about CVT improvements to handle the 2.0L.

    the 50+kWh battery I've got to find a crashed bz4x in another state as those cells ill work in the Prus to get me 71.4-72.8 kWh and the RX450h+ would get me to 18.1-kWh and its smaller than the Rav4 18.1kWh For which For we cant use in the Prius.

    do you see the vision?
     
  16. Tim Jones

    Tim Jones Senior Member

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    I have a customer with the Tesla that has Dragstrip mode...... you'll never beat it unles your driving a funny car.....
    Why not get a older mustang and electrify it......would be much easier......
    To each his own but sounds like a crazy idea........... the prius gets great mpg but that's it......... nothing nice looking about it.
    The trani has different gears and not any stronger and might not work with the hatchback computer..........
     
  17. black_jmyntrn

    black_jmyntrn Senior Member

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    it's not about looks its about giving me the ability to drive long distances between fill-ups and not be limited to taking an FWD car off the pavement places 4x4 vehicles go. The by-product of this is that it will be faster than a single-motor model 3. Now... I get the jump on an AWD then fellas :: clapping hands :: we got ourselves a race!

    can you imagine the tesla owner thinking,, Wth no way and eagerly inches closer in their seat because they thought the had it and can clearly see the Prius has more speed as its not over coming the lifted Prius on all-terrain tires that stick not slip
    [​IMG]
     
    #57 black_jmyntrn, Apr 3, 2023
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2023
  18. black_jmyntrn

    black_jmyntrn Senior Member

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    so wait.. the prime cvt and mg1 or the clutch plate is whats making the prime obtain higher mph in ev mode? thats where I got lost.

    I am trying to source the extra clutch parts now but If I need a prime cvt then... I need to get one of those.

    Separately, has anyone here actually touched the part, or is all comments theory based on reading?
     
    #58 black_jmyntrn, Apr 3, 2023
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2023
  19. black_jmyntrn

    black_jmyntrn Senior Member

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    i plan on removing the power management ecu from the prime to see if the ports are the same or not. cross referencing more on the part numbers and trying to find one from a Prime that matches my prime. I should be able to read the ECU, download the file and compare it to the one in my Plugin to see how different they are.
     
  20. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Higher road speed in EV mode depends on an MG1 that can safely spin at those higher speeds. Gen 4's can spin up to 17,000 rpm safely.

    Using MG1 to contribute extra driving power alongside MG2 requires the sprag clutch (and an ECU that knows about the sprag clutch, else it would never try to do that).