Assessing blame -- Prius catalytic converter theft

DONE!

Last year, California passed a law putting an end date on new cars with catalytic converters. Or more explicitly, gasoline engines. After that, new models must be EVs, or certain other types such as hydrogen fuel that don't need catalytic converters.

The requirement is linked to model year, not retroactive to prior model years.

 

Yep... If someone is determined enough to rob you there's not much you can do. That's why we depend on the society we live in to not get too out of control and currently billionaires are massively out of control especially with short selling their investments in banks just before the destroy the bank...

But more to protecting your property point, this dude: LockPickingLawyer • Instagram is incredibly entertaining because he can pick every lock that gets shipped to him in a matter of minutes.That doesn't mean locks don't work anymore... It just means locks work good enough because there's not enough interest in stealing your stuff.

Soon as that interest grows, such as in the soaring value of precious metals in a catalytic converter, the security efforts of the past are no longer valid and its time to figure out a better way. And in a society that makes capitalism more important than basic decency, many of the "solutions" are actually just more exploitation for money.

 

I believe hydrogen engines will need a SCR to handle any NOx. Can't say if they contain any materials to make them tempting targets of theft though.

Is California saying you have to install a cat on a pre-emission regulation car before selling it?

 

Fuel cell vehicles too, or just hydrogen ICEs?

I've never heard of the feds or any states making such a requirement.

 

The ICE. A 3-way cat needs CO and hydrocarbon pollutants with the NOx to neutralize them all. So a hydrogen ICE will likely need some emission controls used on diesels that make more NOx.

My initial post was about the complaint of California making a law disallowing the sale of cars with non-working emission controls. I can see how it can be burdensome, but selling cars without cats isn't going to ease a supply shortage of cars that can legally be on the road.

 

CO + 2HC + 2O2 => 2CO2 + H2O + C

Anybody care to check my work?

I'm writing this balance equation because I respectfully disagree with ETC's opinion that a Prius exhaust is clean enough that it doesn't need a catalytic converter

 

Also, respectfully.....
That's a bit different than what I actually said on multiple occasions.
What I actually said was that a Prius would probably meet federal emissions standards without a cat.....meaning FEDERAL emissions for a car in its class and miles.
This is very different than CARB restrictions, and more different still from being able to pass a test in all jurisdictions.
I've also said on multiple occasions that it's better to just replace the cat than it is to dive into the outlaw world of test pipes and other measures.

I base my suspicions on the fact that Priuses in most states are federally legal with a $150 (pre-Bidenomics price) aftermarket cat that may or may not have the same amount of unobtanium or mysterium in it as the $1100 OEM unit.
Also....if a G3 is 2.5-3 times more efficient than brand "y" it automatically has a leg up on the competition, as measured by the sniffer if you're talking about units per mile.
There was a time that my beloved home state of Indiana had a state VET programme, and I may or may not have seen cars that may or may not have been Priuses pass the test without a cat.
Alcohol and wagers may or may not have been involved.

Today, 90/92 of the counties in the Hoosier state have done away with VET for the obvious reason that if you do not cram millions of people into a few coastal counties whose air quality is impacted by inversion layers.....it's simply not needed.
The 2 Hoosier counties that have a vestigial VET programme probably do so out of inertia rather than any real-world attempt to clear the air....but that's a guess.

EPA Emission Standards for Light-Duty Vehicles and Trucks and Motorcycles | US EPA

 

In my equation that arrow equal sign in the middle indicates the catalyst material. Without a catalyst The only emissions you will have from the pipe would be the ones on the left side of the equation. I'll emissions will be hydrocarbons and carbon monoxide. There will be no carbon dioxide or water. Are you sure Federal or regulations allow for this?

 

No.
I'm not.
Standards are JUST that - a measure, norm, or model in comparative evaluations.
Math nerds would use EQUATIONS.

The feds have a standard.
https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyPDF.cgi?Dockey=P100O9ZJ.pdf

THIS "allows" for a certain emission, of things like: NMOG (g/mi), NOx (g/mi), CO (g/mi), etc...etc...
Priuses with a test pipe either MEET that standard or they do not.
This is DIFFERENT from being able to "pass emissions"....or not.

Despite my libertarian underpinnings, I get it.
We all breathe the 'same air.'
Just remember.....NOT ALL OF US are crammed nutt-to-butt into just a few counties along the coast.
"clean air standards" mean just THAT.
Standard.
Clean.
Air.


NOTE:
Once again.....I state for the record that Priuses are not performance oriented vehicles, and thusly a Prius owner would be best served (on free soil) to use a cat and a closed loop fuel management system AND driving easily within the standards as set forth by dot.DOT.dot.gov.
In places like the SoCal you're probably better off just accepting the inevitable and ditching ICE powered vehicles and rolling a BEV....

Science, and stuff.....

 

I know this isn't your main point, but I'm thinking you've overstated it. Even without a catalyst, I think oxidation of hydrocarbons gives you a lot of carbon dioxide and a lot of water. You get some carbon monoxide and unburned hydrocarbons in there too, especially when the oxidation goes poorly. The catalyst is there to mop those up.

 

Nope...Without platinum/palladium this 3 way exothermic rxn will not occur.

 

Are you saying that there is no CO2 or H2O coming out of the combustion chamber, before the exhaust reaches the cat? Just CO and HC?

 

There is plenty of 'stink' air in Dixie.

Bob Wilson

 

How much of it would be ameliorated with catalytic converters?

 

I found closer rxns here:

https://www.uen.org/lessonplan/view/37774

2 CO + O2 -> 2 CO2
C2H4 + 3 O2 -> 2 CO2 + 2 H2O (May be a lot more variants)
2 CO + 2 NO -> 2 CO2 + N2
4 CO + 2 NO2 -> 4 CO2 + N2 (Not sure about this one)

Is NO3 formed?

2 CO + 2 NO3 -> N2 + 2 O2 + 2 CO2 (I guess so, source of O2 for top 2)

Sorry if too much information…

 

Note to self: not voting for Nithya Raman next time around. Should be easy to remember similar to Ramen…

 

A bunch as so many have ‘disabled’ the Liberal emissions exhaust systems.

Bob Wilson

 

I leave a jack stand in front of my front door, where our Prius v used to park. Wouldn’t want the family of someone accidentally crushed by our Prius trying to steal the cat to sue me for neglect!

IF I saw a huge diamond in the front seat of a vehicle in the ghetto, I would presume it’s a fake! Pretty unimpressive logic from a Harvard grad. Who are they accepting???

 

If you're going to 'nope' me on that, I hope you're prepared with evidence that what's coming out of the combustion chamber isn't already predominantly CO₂ and H₂O, in quantities much greater than the CO and HC that the catalyst is there to mop up.

 

It is, true, but CO is a lot more deadly!

https://www.co2meter.com/blogs/news/1209952-co-and-co2-what-s-the-difference#:~:text=However%2C%20some%20describe%20the%20odor,reach%20the%20same%20risk%20level.

“While 35 ppm (0.4%) of CO is quickly life threatening, it takes more than 30,000 ppm (3%) of CO2 to reach the same risk level.”