Gen 5 Prius Prime worth over Gen 5 Prius?

And if the price of retail electricity doubles every 10 years, how does that change the math?

Also, what's this about panels only lasting 25 years? We're still getting fair use out of some 36 year olds. Definitely post-peak, but no point in taking them down.

 

What size solar system? I was quoted $33k for a 5.2kW one with a 10kWh battery. I'm skipping the battery now. The solar alone is under $18k. Prices before tax credits and possible renewable energy credits.

The 25 years isn't the life of the panel. It is a production capacity warranty like the 100k mile one on an EV battery. After 25yrs, the panel will very likely still be producing at 80% or more.

It will take about the same amount of time to recoup the additional price of a hybrid over the non-hybrid.

The new Prime's price increase is in line with the old's when considering the difference in EV range and battery. The OP complaint is more about the fact the new doesn't get a federal incentive(when not leased) while the old did, but the old's eligibility was going to be gone in a quarter or two anyway under the old law.

 

Interesting... I was talking to a guy about a ~15kW with no battery for ~$30k. I want to do something soon, hope to hear more of your progress.

 

and manu bought pips for hov access in cali (not applicable anymore)

 

If electricity is free, then it makes no difference 10x or 100x, it will be still zero. All assumption is based on the static number using the current local cost. Yeah, the gas price can double in a very short period as it did last year. The point is, "free electricity" is not for everyone, every place, and in every situation.

12kW system. Here is the estimate. Needless to say, I did not sign.

My bad. I was not implying that the panel dies after 25 years. What I meant to say was the period of full warranty. Anything past that point, I will be on my own. I fixed my comment.

That may be true if the model offers both HV and ICE versions in an equal trim. Please show me where I can buy a non-hybrid Gen5 Prius. Yeah, if I am comparing the same model of cars one being a Hybrid and the other non-hybrid, it will be a very hard sell for me to pay $5500 more for a hybrid.

I did not say the price increase is not in line. The current price of any new car is ridiculous. Gen5 PP is the same. Without the incentive, I would not even consider purchasing Gen5 PP. For the same reason, I would not have bought three Gen4 PPs for sure, if there weren't huge Toyota discounts and tax credits.

I am simply saying that without incentive, the current price of Gen5 PP is not economical, albeit it may be more ecological than the gasser Prius. There simply are much better choices that are both economical and ecological than buying a Gen5 PP now.

 

yes, new cars are expensive, but I think with the current used car market buying new is a better deal. So if you need a new car (I did) even without the incentives you may have to jump in (although some state incentives may apply). And, I looked around and did not see any better choices that are both economical and ecological that were better than the Gen 5 PP. I'm not even a Prius diehard - quite the opposite actually, having driven VWs all my life.

 

But, I thought the comparison on this thread is about regular Gen5 Prius vs Gen 5 Prius Prime? Did you buy Gen5 Prius Prime over the regular Gen5 Prius? And you are saying that was more economical?

You are correct about the used car market. I thought about buying back the Gen4 PP I sold last year from the dealer and getting the $4K tax credit on the used EV credit. But there is no chance to find a used Gen4 PP under $25K locally. So, my search is now focused on a New Chevy Bolt EV on our local lot without markup. Fortunately, I don't need a car right now. And even if I need it, it will be a second car that will be used strictly for daily commuting and around-town errands. For now, I can wait and, I may end up not needing a second car after all.

 

I was responding to some other comments just above. I did not consider the Gen 5 Prius. Looked at BEV vehicles, the Kia EV 6 and Hyundai 5 and 6, and then recently got on to the 2023 Prius Prime, just a few weeks ago. Got lucky (very, I guess), found one in another state (just two hours drive) and bought it a bit under MSRP. Compared to anything else, this met more of my requirements and I needed a car. So far, I love it. It is too complicated though, I hope that does not lead to less reliability. The whole Prius thing is new to me. Btw, I would have looked at the Bolt, but could not find one to drive. Dealer said they had no idea when/if they'd get more.

 

Yeah, that's the same way in my area. I am hoping that by the end of this year, GM will have the all-new Equinox EV out with a $30K price tag, which makes any unsold Bolt EV unsellable to the general public and thus may become a bargain for a minimalist like me. So, I keep watching the local Chevy inventory on a daily base.

 

Right now it is filing paperwork and permits. That's going to eat up a couple months.

I think that was around the size of what my parents were quoted. 60k in NC. Prices seem very variable between states.

Corolla would be close to the Prius. The fuel cost difference on Fueleconomy.gov between the Corolla and its hybrid was $2000 over five years. The price difference is about $1300, but other for other models it can be over $2000. My point was that if pay back times is your only metric, then most of these efficient cars aren't worth the price.

The inflation adjusted MSRP of the 2016 and 2020 Prius is higher than the 2023 Prius. The gen4 Prime was about $3000 more than the hybrid, and it was still cheap for a plug in without the incentives. The new PP gives a lot more EV range with less compromise in other areas.

PHEVs have the much of the benefits of a BEV without the drawbacks. That comes at a cost. A ICE or BEV will have have lower overall costs than a comparable PHEV. Having both drivetrains in one car isn't a simple endeavor. Well, a series hybrid would be easier to make, but at the expense of hybrid efficiency.

 

Correct. But even within the same state regional differences are huge. I live in the Solar and EV void area of the state. Installers are far away, and grids are very old. In general electrifying homesteads in my region is a very costly endeavor.
How Much Do Solar Panels Cost? (2023) | ConsumerAffairs

If I have to pick one to buy at MSRP, then I would buy Corolla (Hybrid or ICE) over Prius any day. The budget and price dictate buying decisions for most consumers. Yes, cost saving is the most swaying factor to choose a more efficient vehicle. You might be correct on the price of the efficient car being higher and not worth the price if comparing the MSRP on new cars. But that changes if incentives are available and if the car is sold at a huge discount.

My purchase of the 2022 Escape PHEV was at least $5K cheaper than the equivalent Hybrid, and $3K cheaper than the ICE version with the incentive. My purchase prices of the 2017 PP Premium and 2020 PP LE with incentives were both less than the purchase price of the 2015 Prius Two (no incentive). Only the 2021 PP Limited price with incentive was higher than the 2015 Prius Two by ~$2K. But here I was getting MSRP $35K PP Ltd for only $2K more than MSRP $25K Prius Two. These prices do not include the price of the car sold.

Also for used cars, at least it used to be hybrid premium diminished with age fairly quickly. So, a $2,000 hybrid premium can be gone by the time car is 5 years old and compared to the price for the same age and comparably equipped ICE model. This was certainly the case for my purchase of 4 years old 2008 Civic Hybrid and 5 years old 2014 Pathfinder Hybrid. For the Pathfinder Hybrid, it was $5K more on MSRP when new, but when I purchased it 5 years old, the price was equivalent to or even cheaper than the comparably equipped ICE version of the 2014 Pathfinder. So, my point is, while the cost is the most important factor for my purchase decision, efficiency does not always cost more, in fact, it can be a big money saving. But right now in the current market, Gen5 Prius Prime does not save money over the regular Gen5 Prius.

Inflation-adjusted price has no meaning to someone who doe not get pay raise equal to or greater than the inflation rate. I certainly did not get a 12% pay raise from last year. And again, you are only comparing MSRP. There are ways to buy a car below MSRP. To date, I have not purchased a single car at MSRP. And my plan is not to buy a car at MSRP for my next car if I have to purchase another one.

Once more, this is true if you stick with MSRP. I have purchased 4 PHEVs in the last 5 years. None of them were more expensive than ICE or Hybrid counterparts or a comparable BEV. For the 2022 model compact SUV, please find me a comparable car (ICE, Hybrid, or BEV) to a loaded Escape PHEV SEL (MSRP$44k) that was sold at or below $32k. Because that was what I paid for this loaded Escape PHEV SEL (MSRP$44k) with incentives. So, I know for a fact, the efficiency of PHEV can be a big saving. But, Gen5 PP is not the one that can save money.

 

yes - that's the Crux of the matter. Everyone's utilities & gasoline & economic situation varies. Chances are, people that look to a new car in the first place, much less a phev - are better off financially than many. Especially with new cars of that nature often having a markup of thousands above MSRP.
Our out of pocket 8kw system - was $30k back in 2008.
Our SoCal/edison 24-month utility bill average was $225. 2 hybrid family gasoline (lexus suv &prius) monthly average was $425
After hybrid tradeins - to one full ev & one plugin - gasoline was practically an insignificant / near zero-sum.



Look at that young good look'n guy! Ha! Nearly 1½ decades ago. Back of the napkin that means what, roughly 70 months to fully advertised pv?
But since costs for SoCal Edison electricity continued to go up & up to match inflation, the break even was a bit quicker. What a great thing for a retiree - to not have to pay for electric utilities.
SoCal electricity rates are obscene, & getting worse. That made pv work for us. Now that we are out of so Cal (over a yr ago) we're powered mostly from a string of Northwestern Hydro dams (10¢/kwh) - & pv's not such a quick/good return like it was back down there. Ergo, if you crunch the numbers in it works? It definitely works.
.

 

what turned you off to the m3 at around 30k?

 

30K? Assume that is after the $7,500 tax credit. I'm not eligible so the M3 would be pretty much what I paid for Prime. Regardless, it was not purely a money drive decision, I just wasn't ready to make the leap to BEV. Partly because I drive some rural areas in very cold weather that would be test the long end of the range. But I also do a lot of driving just local, so will be able to do that almost exclusively on full electric with the Prime. For me, seemed like the best of both worlds. And I think it is an environmentally responsible car purchase, even if not as much as a BEV. Also just liked the build "feel" of the Prius more, at least compared to the Tesla. The Kia and Hyundai have very nice interiors, feel like quality.

 

It really is the best of both worlds. You can switch between modes depending on which is the most efficient at the time. Too many stories of an EV encountering unfavorable conditions and taking massive hits to the battery range. My neighbor just mentioned his EV has a range of 220. If the AC is used the entire time, range drops to 150. A 30%+ drop in range!! You would never see that kind of hit to mileage on a normal gas car or hybrid unless you're doing heavy duty towing.

 

Solar installation costs sadly vary immensely for the same system from different builders and different areas. (Some as much as 4x another)
Almost feels like a regulation problem boardering on illegal in some circumstances.

DIY 15kw is under $5000, too bad DIY is virtually illegal nationwide

 

Yeah, I have some free electricity and still think a Prime does not make financial sense (there is no incentive that I can get for a Prime). To drive 100% in EV mode it is basically a very slow BEV which carries unnecessary weight and requires annual oil change.
Battery degradation will hurt EV range while it hardly affects mileage in a regular hybrid.
Might as well get a regular Prius and make good use of the engine, switch to a BEV when I am eventually ready.

 

I was considering ordering a new Prius in 2024 or 2025.

However, in Canada the Prius Prime is not available with AWD. That makes it less attractive for me. I'm not sure the $2500 rebate is enough to make me go that direction.

Prius Prime XSE Premium is $50204.50 - $2500 = $47704.50.
Prius AWD Limited is $46204.50

In that scenario I'm still more interested in the Prius AWD Limited.

 

That depends. Honda Hybrid owners mileage got so bad when traction batteries degraded that they formed a class action.

https://www.thedetroitbureau.com/2009/12/honda-agrees-to-settle-lawsuit-over-hybrid-mileage/
True, that doesn't happen as a whole with the Prius - but eventually, your mileage does take a hit. You start burning more gas ..... thus - paying more for fuel - eventuality .
The ev simply won't go as far .... so that by the time the car hits 100,000+ miles - in stead of 325 mi range - maybe it's 'only' 300.

.

 

The 2023MY Prius Prime's Federal govt rebate is $5000 in Canada, thanks to the increased range of the larger battery.

No federal rebate on the 'standard' Prius.

You may find the hybrid AWD Corolla, or even a hybrid Corolla Cross, to be a better choice for your purposes.