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Featured More hybrids and less EVs to reduce emissions

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Yvrdriver, Jul 7, 2023.

  1. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    apparently they know their audience, after all
    ;)
    .
     
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  2. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    :rolleyes:

    Edit to add that it seems that is so with Ford, GM, and Mercedes. For now.
     
    #42 Trollbait, Jul 10, 2023
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2023
  3. meeder

    meeder Active Member

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    The amount of diesel vehicles has been rapidly declining over the last 5 years.
    They suffer from high taxation, high maintenance costs and declining reliability. The last two issues are caused by the strict Euro 6 emission regulations.
    Fleet owners have been moving away from diesel very rapidly because the residual value has been tanking.
    More and more manufacturers don't even offer a diesel engine anymore in normal passenger cars.
     
  4. Priipriii

    Priipriii Member

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    "But, contrary to popular belief — diesel engines pollute less than gasoline engines. Diesel engines especially pollute less than gasoline engines that require “premium” gas. Europeans drive cars with diesel-powered engines because they are cleaner, more efficient, and have greater longevity than gasoline engines"

    Also the cost of diesel is lower for the amount of mileage your car gets out of it, so Europeans account for 40% of diesel driven cars vs Americans which is only 4.5%
     
  5. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    depends - on whether you count C02 &/or particulate
    .....snip.......
    depends ... on whether or not it's ultra low sulfer refined - which many countries now demand - which significantly increases costs
    (btw - we're IMG_20230609_061903.jpg - in our diesel MB sprinter chassis motorhome right now

    .
     
    #45 hill, Jul 11, 2023
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2023
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  6. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i was once told that most of europe was once covered in black soot due to diesel
     
  7. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Not really. They use lungs to filter it out of the air.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  8. Priipriii

    Priipriii Member

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    Pretty sure youre thinking of cali, and i dont know if diesel was the cause of it
     
  9. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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  10. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Granny (dad's mom) was 15 when they left England.for the USA. She told us kids how the blackened buildings would actually "glisten" from the coating of blackened goop - and found it quite beautiful. Found some pic's of before & after cleaning;

    Screenshot_2023-07-12-08-29-08-58_e4424258c8b8649f6e67d283a50a2cbc.jpg
    .
     
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  11. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Coal use in homes was also a part of the soot issue.
     
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  12. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    When Disney was building a park in Shanghai you'd check the weather report for filth in the air before going out in the morning to work. It's no wonder they're switching quicker to plugins.
    .
     
  13. Yvrdriver

    Yvrdriver Member

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  14. Yvrdriver

    Yvrdriver Member

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    SAE MOBILUS

    I have not read the journal article in its entirety, there are some formulas that look beyond my paygrade, but here is the abstract...

    Published April 13, 2022 by SAE International in United States

    A Data-Driven Greenhouse Gas Emission Rate Analysis for Vehicle Comparisons

    Abstract
    The technology focus in the automotive sector has moved toward battery electric vehicles (BEVs) over the last few years. This shift has been ascribed to the importance of reducing greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions from transportation to mitigate the effects of climate change. In Europe, countries are proposing future bans on vehicles with internal combustion engines (ICEs), and individual
    United States (U.S.) states have followed suit. An important component of these complex decisions is the electricity generation GHG emission rates both for current electric grids and future electric grids. In this work we use 2019 U.S. electricity grid data to calculate the geographically and tempo-rally resolved marginal emission rates that capture the real-world carbon emissions associated with
    present-day utilization of the U.S. grid for electric vehicle (EV) charging or any other electricity need. These rates are shown to be relatively independent of marginal demand at the highest marginal demand levels, indicating that they will be relatively insensitive to the addition of renewable electricity generation capacity up to the point at which curtailment occurs regularly unless the most carbon-intensive electricity sources are preferentially deactivated. We propose a simplified methodology for comparing emissions from BEVs and hybrid electric vehicles (HEVs) based on the marginal emission rates and other publicly available data and apply it to comparative case studies
    of BEVs and HEVs. We find that currently there is no evidence to support the idea that BEVs lead to a uniform reduction in vehicle emission rates in comparison to HEVs and in many scenarios have higher GHG emissions. This suggests that a mix of powertrain technologies is the best path toward reducing transportation sector emissions until the U.S. grid can provide electricity for the all-electric fleet infrastructure and vehicle operations with a carbon intensity that produces a net environmental benefit."
     
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  15. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

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    Thanks for the link. Very much worth reading.
     
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  16. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    so the gov just needs to regulate tires? problem solved
     
  17. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Thing about testing tires is that it also depends upon the specific tire. The Prii delivered in the US aren't all equipped with same tire model. Those different tires will have different results on these tests. The tire VOC emissions can also very between manufacturing lots, as tire companies switch materials with price changes. If synthetic rubber is cheaper, they'll use that instead of natural rubber.

    The tire wear test isn't a measure of what is getting emitted into the air. Some of the mass loss is sticking to the street. Particle size is also an important measure of the potential harm to human health.
     
  18. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Thanks!
    So let me edit the abstract into simpler English by first striking the fluff:

    The technology focus in the automotive sector has moved toward battery electric vehicles (BEVs) over the last few years. This shift has been ascribed to the importance of reducing greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions from transportation to mitigate the effects of climate change. In Europe, countries are proposing future bans on vehicles with internal combustion engines (ICEs), and individual United States (U.S.) states have followed suit. An important component of these complex decisions is the electricity generation GHG emission rates both for current electric grids and future electric grids. In this work we use 2019 U.S. electricity grid data to calculate the geographically and tempo- rally resolved marginal emission rates that capture the real-world carbon emissions associated with present-day utilization of the U.S. grid for electric vehicle (EV) charging or any other electricity need. These rates are shown to be relatively independent of marginal demand at the highest marginal demand levels, indicating that they will be relatively insensitive to the addition of renewable electricity generation capacity up to the point at which curtailment occurs regularly unless the most carbon-intensive electricity sources are preferentially deactivated. We propose a simplified meth- odology for comparing emissions from BEVs and hybrid electric vehicles (HEVs) based on the marginal emission rates and other publicly available data and apply it to comparative case studies of BEVs and HEVs. We find that currently there is no evidence to support the idea that BEVs lead to a uniform reduction in vehicle emission rates in comparison to HEVs and in many scenarios have higher GHG emissions. This suggests that a mix of powertrain technologies is the best path toward reducing transportation sector emissions until the U.S. grid can provide electricity for the all-electric fleet infrastructure and vehicle operations with a carbon intensity that produces a net environmental benefit.

    Now we can fix the minor English errors to see what they were trying so badly to say:

    The automotive sector has moved toward battery electric vehicles (BEVs) to reduce greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions. Europe and some (U.S.) states are proposing bans on internal combustion engines (ICEs). Electricity generation has GHG emission for electric vehicle (EV) charging. Renewable generation needs to deactivate carbon-intensive generation. We are comparing BEVs and hybrid electric vehicles (HEVs). We failed to find evidence BEVs reduce vehicle emissions compared to HEVs and sometimes BEVs have higher GHG emissions. A powertrain mix is the best path toward reducing emissions.​

    Once edited, I have almost no interest in this paper. I bought my BEV to cut the cost per mile to 1/3d what my Prius Prime cost. Retiring carbon fueled electricity generation is a different problem than the mix of cars in the coal power plant parking lot.

    Bob Wilson

    ps. The abstract was written in the James Fenimore Cooper style. I prefer a Mark Twain version.
     
    #58 bwilson4web, Jul 16, 2023
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2023
  19. Yvrdriver

    Yvrdriver Member

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    It does seem like a very complicated emission to measure and monitor. I assume there are some rules and guidelines as to what can go into tire manufacture, but there are so many variables as to where the stuff eventually goes. In city streets with drains, the stuff that gets stuck on the road could eventually enter the water system from rain and cleaning? But on long highway stretches, it could just settle on some nearby fields, a mountainside, etc.
     
  20. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

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    Most of the particles seem to end up on the rear end of my white cars. After every rain.
     
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