My thoughts on the Prius product.

There's building cars and then there's selling them.
100 MPG is only a goal because people have 10 fingers, and in my brief 13 years in the community Priuses have transmorgified themselves from being a plodding, ugly, low performance car with middling underpinnings that happened to get really good fuel economy to being the third best compact sedan available in North America today (behind the Civic and the Mazda 3.)

You can't cheat physics and still make a profit.
The Prius has unshrouded 19" wheels - so gone is the "dolphin on roller-skates" looks and handling.
The Prius has nearly 200BHP and is capable of almost normal acceleration instead of the "0-60mph - that same day" numbers of just 10 years ago.
Priuses are now feature a sleek, glassy, almost muscular shape that a 15-year-old would nearly not be ashamed to be seen driving - instead of the awkward, angular, door-stop shape that only a tree-hugger could love.

AND....Toyo did this while maintaining a 50++ (real world) MPG and at an eye-watering price that's "only a few thousand" dollars above the competition.

You can't have it both ways.
Math is math, and physics are physics....but MOST IMPORTANTLY to people who expect to get paid one or twice a month..........money is MONEY.
I frankly think that Toyota stuck the landing on this one.

Finally....I'm an Electronics Technician.
That's what the "ET" in ETC(SS) stands for.
I've LITERALLY hopped collector plate voltages with an analogue VOM to troubleshoot a piece of equipment.
...ask someone with grey (or NO) hair to explain that...but it involves glass...as in vacuum tubes!

NOW....electronics are modular.
You can (and I just did) contemplate replacing an Engine Control Module for less than $200.
BUT you may have to pay somebody to plug in some numbers before your car will run properly.
Deal with it.
BELIEVE ME - things are better than they usta be!!

Some say that these days companies intentionally prevent us from fixing our own devices and limit access to repair information, raising questions about true ownership and control over our purchases - and in the 2020's that's a thing, but there's also intellectual property rights that have to be factored in.
As a conservative person with a few miles on the odometer and strong libertarian roots I can swing from either side of the bag on this issue.

DO you want to ask people if they want fries with their order for $15/hr or do you want to sling code and design cars for a living - or maybe maintain or sell them?
Or...anything ELSE?

You can't cheat physics and math, but MORE IMPORTANTLY you can't cheat economics - unless you plan to work in government.

 

Toyota engineering expertise has provided a transition from mainstream gas to mainstream affordable long range ev cars of the future. General Motors tried and failed. Manufacturers knew ev was the holy grail back in the 1920's and tried and failed. Toyota and semiconductors made it happen.

However today's hybrids are the most complicated cars ever made. Expensive parts and labor is expected. The brake booster, inverter, eight year hv battery and especially the reliable transaxle with motor generators were breakthroughs at this pricepoint and volume.

Toyota did patent this technology and sold rights to Ford and others. Toyota and other knowledgeable people know aftermarket clone suppliers can not be counted on for quality, safety or reliability. You can't even buy a reliable maf sensor at Autozone. So the innovators and risk takers lock down their code and processes. Capitalism at its zenith, like it or not.

Overpaying for a high mile hybrid made ten years ago is not smart. Especially if you are an Uber driver who can't afford good tires much less a new, high quality brake booster. Same applies when the hv battery needs replacement. The last automotive technology transition like this were engines with no emissions devices to vacuum controls to ecus in the seventies and eighties. It was a disaster for high mile used car buyers then as well.

In the near future we will have 500k cars that are simpler and every one of them gets 100 mpge. Very reliable with solid state liquid cooled batteries. Yes, they may average $50k but they will last twice as long. The smart money will operate them from solar.

 

Think, then talk is wise.
GOD gave us two ears and one mouth for a reason.

Many people will.
That's the groovy thing bout FORUMS.
It's supposed to be an exchange of ideas.

ABS relies on a properly operating conventional brake system. In other words, the brakes that people used for over 100 years before ABS modules were considered " a crucial safety part."
If the rest of your braking system is in working order, you should usually still have normal braking without ABS.
In that case, it's safe to continue your journey until you can pay the IP producers a living wage.

I cannot speak for Priuses because the two that I drove (both G3s) never had ABS issues.
It would not surprise me if a regenerative or ABS (or traction control) module failure would dead-line a Toyota but in my GMs this merely puts the vehicle into a limp mode.
In a fair and just world you could tap a box on a screen acknowledging the fact that it's horribly unsafe to operate the car without ABS or Stabilitrak and insulate GM from the hordes of lawyers that would descend upon them if you squish somebody's dog with your car - but the world is neither fair NOR just.

Don't get me wrong!
ABS is important.
So are all of the other alphabet-soup safety features in cars that are also now considered to be 'crucial."
Cars were horrible when I was growing up.
Dash boards were metal, disc brakes for daily drivers were in some future fantasy land, glass was non-layered and non tempered and child seats looked curiously like a woman's lap.
One of the reasons that a middling, egg-shaped 5-pax, FWD car costs over $30,000 in America today is equal parts CAFE, emissions, and all of those mandatory safety features that people suddenly cannot drive safely without.

People have to design that stuff.
You can either take the Apple approach and use foreign slave labor and offshore the profits, or?
Pay people a living wage.

TRUTH is usually between two opposing extremes.
I'm currently contemplating replacing a dodgy ECU for my sweet wife's usta-car, a 2012 GMC.
Unlike other parts, a failed ECU will indeed turn a car into lawn art.
Since it's an older car, parts are widely available.
The module is also cheap - $200 bucks.
HOWEVER!!!
It has to be programmed for the car.

My three choices are:
1. Use a pirate-ware solution and DIY.
2. Pay a dealership $250 for an hour of their time.
3. Use an independent mechanic with a legal programmer.

I know which one I'd LIKE to do but which is the more ethical and sustainable solution?

There's a lot of buzz about ChatGPT lately.
If you know a history dorky, ask them to explain the origins of the word 'Luddite' sometime.....

 

Like automotive safety, car reliability and longevity are vastly improved since the 1980s.
Back then, a 100,000 mile car was an oddity.
Now?
It's often not ready to meet it's second owner until the first owner starts to experience problems at 150,000 miles.

50K for the car or the battery?
The average cost for a BEV NOW is over $60,000 and that's with lithium - NOT exactly the earth's friendliest solution.
Not labor-friendly either....

Hopefully.

The problem is ALWAYS distribution, isn't it?
With oil, it's tankers, pipelines and when those are not allowed, rail.
With electricity it seems to be power distribution.
California has lost hundreds to an aging, inefficient power grid.
Maui, it would seem, just lost over 1000.

End-user "renewables" and an interconnected smart battery 'hive' approach might be the end goal until we can figure out cold fusion, hopefully without raping the planet for the minerals to produce the renewables or turning the Earth into a ball of plasma by getting the fusion part wrong.
I like where solid state batteries are going, but I want to see fewer 15-year-old kids mining minerals in countries that most people cannot find on a map.

 

Toyota has moved their hybrid system to their mainstream models. This has actually hurt Prius sales, and lead to it being cancelled in some markets. They could have continued in pushing the fuel efficiency envelope with the Prius(100 mpg is beyond possible though), but they also need to sell the car. With the people to do buy by efficiency switching the plug ins, Toyota needed to try something else to increase sales, or cancel the model.

ICE cars are complicated. Without the complication, you don't get safety, low emissions, and high efficiency. By adding an EV side to the drive train, a hybrid will always be more complicated.

Ford didn't buy anything from Toyota. T got their patents filed first, and some of F's potentially infringe. Instead of wasting millions fighting it out in court, the two reached and an agreement. If F bought hybrid tech from T, then T bought diesel and emission control tech from F. Both ended up settling and paying Pace.

 

i'm not sure toyota's goal was ever self reliance self sufficiency.
not sure where you're getting that from, but if toyota had their way, your cars repair data would only be available to a dealer. and this is not new with gen 5.

to build a 100mpg car that is functional for public roads and mass manufacturing at a price level that works is not possible with current technology

lower carbon footprint means not relying on fossil fuels. a nice sentiment, but most of the us driving public does not care.

now if you want to talk about the redesign, manufacturing numbers and the price, i have some strong sentiments

 

Toyota practices something called "Kaizen". It means that they work steadily at improving their existing product. If you look back over the last four generations of Priuses you will see that the MPG has crept up over time. If you want 100 MPG with existing technology you will get something like a three wheeled moped with a fairing. No one, not even Toyota, knows how to take something as big and heavy as a four door sedan and get 100 MPG out of it.

Not yet.

 

we'll all be driving ev's before they do

 

A past owner of a 2003, 2010, and 2017 Prius, the last one a Prius Prime, I found they gave a consistent 52-56 MPG. But then I bought a 2014 BMW i3-REx, 2017 BMW i3-REx, and 2019 Tesla Model 3 and never looked back.

The BMW i3-REx is a short range 72-106 mi EV that carries its own charger, the range extender engine. The gas engine powered generator maintains 70 mph with 70-88 mi, 2.3 gal stops at truck stops for cross country trips. It also avoids the CCS-1 disaster and the limited 40-50 kW peak charge rate. The short wheel base makes it a great urban car.

The Model 3 after 115,000 mi and +4 years, has 215 mi EV range. It Supercharges at a peak rate of 178 kW and Autopilot with Full Self Driving that takes a load off the driver. It is a great cross country car.

I prefer having the right tool for the right job. At one time, my past Prius were that tool.

Bob Wilson

 

Toyota's Prius development sequence deserves an historical view. First NHW10 model impressed few, but NHW11 (2001-2003) did better. Arguably it led to creation of this here website

Two decades ago, there was no battery tech to propel cars a useful distance. Toyota's innovative wacky hybrid drivetrain, together with immature NiMh batteries were combined into performing vehicles. Enough were sold for Toyota to design the following sequence of Prius models that are better known here. Toyota lingered perhaps too long with NIMh batteries, and arguably left early days of full-electric lithium-batt vehicles to others.

But is a thing that moving high-voltage battery DC to high-voltage AC motors needed inventing and road testing, and Toyota did that. All later EVs built on that. Toyota hybrid drivetrain may or may not be a persistent wonder, but there are about 10 million of those now providing transportation service, and about 5 million copied by other manufacturers. Numbers about right?

Global vehicle fleet remains mostly pure petrol. Hybrids remain few and EVs fewer still. Niche markets for high-luxury and high-performance vehicles seem best served by pure petrol, but those niches even with high per-unit profits are not getting larger. Numbers of people globally buying 'efficient transportation appliances' will increase. All three drive-train options could access that market.

I would say Toyota expanded transportation technology options, and next 2 to 3 decades will show if they did so optimally.

 

@theory816 your post sounds like an advertisment for the Tim Ogle invention back in the 70's
https://thefreethoughtproject.com/be-the-change/inventor-national-died-under-mysterious-circumstances

and the prime can do 100 mpg, easy.

 

I forgot to mention the advantages of the transaxle and control laws:

• 100 times fewer moving parts - compared to mechanical transmissions, the power split is free from the mechanical wear and built-in inefficiency of traditional automatic transmissions.
• Electric avoidance of ICE weak areas - partial throttle is notoriously a poor operating range for an ICE. The power split transaxle allows the engine to shut off while continuing vehicle operation. When the battery runs low, the engine operates in efficient power region to charge the battery while moving the Prius.
• Downsize the engine - with the ability to add electric boost, a smaller, lighter engine can be used.
• Atkinson cycle engine - notorious for poor power response, the power split transaxle complements the weak parts allowing a thermally efficient engine to be used. This is the one weak area of the BMW i3-REx that uses a traditional Otto cycle engine.

All of the parts working together, the Prius drivetrain is the secret to its efficiency.

Bob Wilson

 

So you dismiss the Prime because it is a plugin hybrid, and then hold up the VW XL1, which is a plugin hybrid???

VW made a limited run of 250 cars. They ran on diesel, got 240 mpg(US gallons), could not pass US safety regulations and cost $150,000.

I don’t see these as a shining example of a mass market car.

 

It can, but once you take it off the test track and operate it in ordinary traffic, it won't.

 

I never regretted trading in the 25 mi EV range Prime for the Model 3. Everyone's driving range is different but in my case, it was 10 miles to work, 10 miles home, leaving barely 5 miles for other chores driving EV. I also found my lowest trim Prime was too quick to turn on the engine.

Once on the ICE, the Prime reverted to a 56-57 MPG Prius. A fine Prius, for me it was an ineffective EV.

As for the VW gas guzzler, try one of these Wiki reports:

In 1939, a group of Shell scientists based in a research laboratory in Wood River, Illinois, USA, had a friendly bet to see who could drive their own car furthest on one gallon of fuel. The winner managed a fuel economy of 49.73 mpg‑US (4.730 L/100 km; 59.72 mpg‑imp).[6] A repeat of the challenge yielded dramatically improved results over the years:

• 149.95 mpg‑US (1.5686 L/100 km; 180.08 mpg‑imp) with a 1947 Studebaker in 1949
• 244.35 mpg‑US (0.9626 L/100 km; 293.45 mpg‑imp) with a 1959 Fiat 600 in 1968[7]
• 376.59 mpg‑US (0.62459 L/100 km; 452.27 mpg‑imp) with a 1959 Opel in 1973.

The current record is 12,665 mpg‑US (0.018572 L/100 km; 15,210 mpg‑imp), set in 2005 by the PAC-Car II. The world record in Diesel efficiency was achieved by a team from the Universitat Politècnica de Valencia (Politechnical University of Valencia, Spain) in 2010 with 1396.8 kilometres per litre. In contrast, the most efficient production Diesel passenger cars achieve 60 mpg‑US (4 L/100 km; 72 mpg‑imp), and some high-powered sports cars achieve as little as 8 mpg‑US (29 L/100 km; 10 mpg‑imp).[8]

The current European Shell Eco-marathon[9] record for a combustion engine entry was set in 2004 by the team from Lycée La Joliverie (France) at 3,410 km on the equivalent of a single litre of fuel. Prototype vehicles using fuel cells are capable of greater energy efficiency. In 2005, a hydrogen-powered vehicle built by Swiss team ETH Zurich achieved a projected 3,836 km on the equivalent of a single litre of fuel. This is equivalent to the distance between Paris and Moscow. In 2013, ethanol efficiency world record was set by Toulouse Ingenerie Multidisciplinarie with 3100 km of a single litre of ethanol. This is equivalent to the distance between Toulouse and Istanbul.​

For a joke, I got 1,000 mi in a 2010 Prius, 11.3 gal, over three weeks.


Bob Wilson

 

Where can I buy one?