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Engine ideals but quickly dies after trying some DIY to remedy blow by.

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by Chris77*, Oct 9, 2023.

  1. Chris77*

    Chris77* Junior Member

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    I attempted some DIY on a 2006 prius I have owned for 6 months it has 150k. After about 2000 miles noticed some blow by on a 700 mile road trip. This is about 0.5 quart in the first 2500 miles. The plan is to clean MAF sensor, clean throttle body, clean pcv and pull plugs inspect and consider piston soak.

    I did the MAF first no problems drove 5 miles used maf cleaner. Next I pulled the PCV it was fouled but still rattled so I cleaned and the hose and the port into the throttle body all of this with heavy deposits, used carb cleaner. I pulled the plugs took pictures and put everything back together. The engine will start but it idles hard and shuts off in about 5 seconds throws red triangle and check engine. I am planning to do the throttle body tomorrow but currently down.

    What is going on? Did I do something wrong? Here are the pictures of my initial inspection and cleaning. Thanks for your help PC.

    Chris

    IMG_20231009_093428214.jpg IMG_20231009_093505638.jpg IMG_20231009_093542064.jpg IMG_20231009_093544339.jpg IMG_20231009_134333155.jpg IMG_20231009_134348137.jpg IMG_20231009_161518012.jpg IMG_20231009_161522900.jpg IMG_20231009_161527515.jpg IMG_20231009_161531922.jpg IMG_20231009_161554659.jpg IMG_20231009_161600859.jpg IMG_20231009_161606512.jpg IMG_20231009_161611914.jpg
     
  2. BuckleSpring

    BuckleSpring Junior Member

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    I'd read the codes, most likely you probably just have a loose connection going to a coil or MAF sensor or something, since all that stuff has to be unplugged to get access to the PCV. I'd be willing to bet it's a P3190 (Poor Engine Power) along with something like a misfire or MAF sensor error. Did you pull the battery for a few minutes after/before doing all this?

    As for your blowby/oil burning issue.... 0.5qt/2500mi is pretty reasonable for a Gen 2 over 150k. If the PCV Valve doesn't reduce it, could try a piston soak if you're that concerned about it, the oil control rings get clogged up over time.
     
  3. Chris77*

    Chris77* Junior Member

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    I don't have a scanner. I am thinking based on your evaluation that I will take it apart in the morning. Inspect everything and put it all back together again. Unless other post direct me otherwise. Thanks for posting.
     
  4. BuckleSpring

    BuckleSpring Junior Member

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    I'd highly recommend getting yourself a cheap bluetooth ELM327 OBD2 reader if you have an android phone (or an old android phone/tablet sitting in a drawer)... W/ the Dr Prius app you can read the Hybrid system-specific codes. It's hard to guess what's going on with any modern car without a basic scantool, you're basically guessing and throwing parts at the problem

    Should probably pull the 12v battery for a little bit to let the ECU reset and relearn... they can act weird after a throttle body cleaning if you haven't done it.
     
    #4 BuckleSpring, Oct 9, 2023
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2023
  5. Chris77*

    Chris77* Junior Member

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    Good idea. I am aware that disconnecting the battery is a way to hard reset. I tried it once before I gave up this afternoon and will do it again in the morning. I am also aware that these things happen with this type of maintenance. Hence why I drove after cleaning the MAF. You got me thinking what if I damaged a wire to an ignition coil or fuel injector something like that. A scan tool would be nice. I suppose if I get stranded somewhere with check engine light I might be able to determine that I could drive and not have to have it towed since I don't know why is the check engine light on. Thanks.


    Another question what do you think of quality of plugs? It seems to me from reviewing charts online that it is either normal or lean and not the carbon that I expected to see.
     
    #4 Chris77*, Oct 9, 2023
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 9, 2023
  6. BuckleSpring

    BuckleSpring Junior Member

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    To me they look fine, just a little worn.


    Yeah I'd start with disconnecting the 12v for like 15 minutes... Like I said, they can act strange after a TB/MAF cleaning if you don't allow the ECU to reset and do a relearn. I'd just go back and verify that all the injectors/coils and MAF are properly plugged in. If you don't see anything obvious, you're definitely probably gonna need a scanner to figure out what codes it's throwing because after that you're basically blindly guessing
     
  7. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    That engine isn't actually starting. When a Prius tries to start its engine, it uses its electric motors to spin the engine much faster than a traditional car can.

    This gives the appearance and sound of an engine starting and then stalling but what you are seeing is a fast prolonged start attempt that isn't working.

    You only get so many of those before the traction battery is depleted, and it is not easy to charge that battery without a successful engine start.
     
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  8. mr_guy_mann

    mr_guy_mann Senior Member

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    Did you clean the throttle body bore? All of the black deposits around the edges of the throttle blade should be removed. Hold the throttle open with one hand and use some "throttle cleaner" (or brake clean) on a rag to scrub the goo away. Sometimes need to use an old toothbrush.

    Did you GENTLY clean the actual sensing elements of the MAF sensor? The 2 little elements are fragile (they make a special spray cleaner for that as well).

    If you try to start the ICE "too many" times without it running (and charging the HV battery), you will run that battery down and will be stuck.

    Always a good idea to be able to scan all systems on a complex car like a Prius.

    Here's a thread that reviews some scantool apps and devices.
    https://priuschat.com/index.php?posts/3290690 DSC_3737.JPG

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
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  9. Chris77*

    Chris77* Junior Member

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    I will keep this in mind tomorrow. I actually tried to start it 5Xs because I read a number of posts that say it is "just burning off cleaner". I couldn't keep that up without posting. How many times do you think I have? I could give it one good effort in the morning and check battery life. I could also pick up a scan tool prior. It looks like kind of pricy to get one in store not really sure yet.
     
  10. Chris77*

    Chris77* Junior Member

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    The plan on the TB is to actually take it off and leave the coolant connected (I know I can bypass I read your publishing), but occasionally go to cooler climate. I am supposed to pick up an oem gasket in the morning for that job. The MAF sensor was sprayed with MAF cleaner. I didn't show after pic it is a shinny orange globe and the 2 small elements in the picture were also sprayed. Do you happen to have a recommendation for in store pickup if I go in the morning to get a scanner? Thanks for your time. I enjoy your posts. I am a novice machinic but have been getting into DIY's over the last 5 yrs due to availability of knowledge online.
     
  11. Chris77*

    Chris77* Junior Member

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    Update:

    Upon inspection found 2 areas of interest. Ignition coil 4 the one on the far right closest to driver, the boot was loose and easily pulled out. This is the hardest ignition coil to get to. I tried to re-posture the boot and stick it back into the bracket. However after 2 attempts car still didn't start. Also there is some mild cracking in the pcv valve hose where it connects to the TB.

    I am not quite sure how to repair this. The hybrid battery is in good shape about 3/4 charge this morning. I could try to fix this if anyone has a recommendation. I may order one of the scan tools today and just let it sit until I can take a look to make sure there isn't more going on?

    Thanks again for the assist.

    IMG_20231010_101231538.jpg IMG_20231010_101234214.jpg IMG_20231010_102541773.jpg IMG_20231010_104109364.jpg
     
  12. BuckleSpring

    BuckleSpring Junior Member

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    The coil connector definitely isn't ideal, but as long as it's fully seated in there, it should be making contact. Even worst case scenario it isn't, the engine should at least attempt to run before flashing a misfire code I'd think. Hose going to the TB is obviously old, but doesn't look bad enough to cause a big enough vacuum leak for the engine not to start either. Have you tried unplugging the MAF and trying to start the vehicle? Maybe it was somehow damaged during cleaning and is throwing some super wrong value that isn't allowing the vehicle to start.

    Either way, you're probably definitely going to need a scan tool to figure out exactly what's going on (or for future diagnosis). If you've got an android phone/tablet and the Dr Prius app, just go grab yourself a cheapo ELM327 bluetooth reader from Amazon Prime for like $10, or grab a mVCI cable and a copy of techstream if you've got a laptop.
     
  13. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    You can repair the existing coil connector, or buy replacement coil connectors. Just chop off the old one and splice on the new one.

    You can get the replacements from most late model Toyotas (any gasoline fueled model) at a junkyard, or from Toyota parts dept, and there are Dorman/generic ones available from Rock Auto, Autozone & others.
     
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  14. Chris77*

    Chris77* Junior Member

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    It won't start with MAF disconnected. It will be Sunday before I can get a scan tool without over paying for it. I will need a different app than Dr Prius to diagnosis check engine light? TY
     
  15. Chris77*

    Chris77* Junior Member

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    Thanks, researching this now. I suppose could go ahead and fix this while waiting on scanner.
     
  16. Chris77*

    Chris77* Junior Member

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    Question: I have Toyota manuals for pcv and throttle body obtained on PC. Is there an advantage to detaching the negative battery terminal as opposed to just taking out both of the clips under the red cover? Also, knowing that the hybrid battery is starting the car. Is it a good idea to disconnect that while working on the ignition coil?
     
  17. mr_guy_mann

    mr_guy_mann Senior Member

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    No idea about what a particular store has for any scantools. I only know about the tools in the linked thread that I tested (all from amazon).

    For the moment the PVC hose is a minor concern.

    However, the ignition coil connector could explain your problem. If that terminal on the wire doesn't stay put in the plastic connector and doesn't make firm contact with the mating terminal on the coil - then that coil won't "fire" (produce spark).

    That's bad because the coil won't send an ignition confirmation (IGf) signal to the ECM - which usually responds by setting a P035x code (P0354 for cylinder 4) and also will not trigger the fuel injectors. Which equals a "engine spins but won't run" condition. Plus a "engine fails to start" code somewhere.

    I can't really describe how to inspect that terminal to see if it's ok to reuse. (Google "pin drag testing")

    Lots of sources sell the plastic connector as they break fairly often on old Toyotas. I also can't describe how to properly remove the other terminals from the old connector (depin) and fit them to a new one. Maybe a youtube search can help.

    Another option would be to find a replacement ignition coil repair "pigtail" connector. That's a new connector with terminals and about 6" of wire on them. You would have to cut the old wires at the old connector and correctly splice the new wires to the engine harness wires.

    All this assumes that my guess about what's happening is correct.

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
  18. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    None of the things will actually reduce oil consumption on a high mile engine. Rebuilding the engine with new rings and valve seals will help.

    . A bad or disconnected pcv or a bad maf sensor will create a no start on these engines.

    Most budget code scanners are not good enough for serious hybrid issues. Even if it does provide codes it is unlikely to be detailed or comprehensive. But a no start that is strictly engine based won’t throw useful codes other than a code that says the engine is not starting.
     
  19. Chris77*

    Chris77* Junior Member

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    Hi. I think this is a very candid response to actually fixing blow by. Why is it that people don't fix this problem? I was actually told by multiple sources that the maintenances won't fix the issue but I decided to do the maintenance anyway. These same people say the car has another 50-100k in current condition. If you like to fix things it doesn't make complete sense but is probably the most cost effective. Even if you could do the piston rings DIY it still isn't a good idea? What benefits do you think will happen from the decarb maintenance as these spots are pretty dirty? Ring job in a can they say as far as piston soaks, though I liked the idea better than pouring the solvents into the crankcase or gas.

    As far as budget scanners was looking at the Bluetooth ELM327 OBD2 . Are there not apps that would run good with that? I haven't had time to research the apps nor the pricing for apps, but was assuming that it work if I need it.

    The ignition coil connector and one wire is defiantly damaged. I probably got that fixed tomorrow morning.
     
  20. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    It's not a bad idea. Just expensive and somewhat risky vs. 50-100k worth of oil top-ups.

    A real ELM327 is great. There are many, many counterfeits on the market. Some of those counterfeits work great, but a lot don't. Be ready to return a few until you hit one that just works.

    Toyota Techstream on a windows laptop is fully capable, it will read from every ECU in the car. The phone apps aren't 100%, but at least a few of them have very good coverage of the many subsystems in the Prius.
     
  21. BuckleSpring

    BuckleSpring Junior Member

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    Just to add to this: 0.5qt/2500mi is actually pretty low for a Gen 2, especially one with 150k+ mi. Usually when people do a piston soak (and maybe some seafoam or MMO in the oil before a change), they're doing it to engines with way more consumption to bring it down to a more normal level (like yours burning 0.5/2500mi). It does seem to work, I had another Gen 2 that burned about ~1qt/1000mi (w/ ~235k mi), changed the PCV and did a ring soak, brought the consumption down to pretty much what you have if not slightly less

    Basically this. A lot of ELM327's online are fake, hence why I recommend you buy from someplace like Amazon to make returns and replacements easy if you get a dud or fake one that doesn't work well. I bought ~10 of them a couple of years ago to give to some family members, and had one dud out of the box that didn't want to connect to anything, was able to request a new one from Amazon at no cost. I'd also highly recommend getting a copy of techstream w/ a cable if you've got a laptop, it can do anything the dealer can, read subcodes, make keys, etc. The ideal solution is to have both: the ELM327 in the car for scanning with your phone when you're on the go or away from home (this is what i use 98% of the time), and Techstream for when you're at home for doing more in-depth diagnostics.
    For the ELM327 Reader, you definitely want the Dr Prius app since it reads HV system codes and can do some other stuff, and I also recommend Car Scanner ELM OBD2 by 0vZ (in the Play Store), Torque, and here's a link so you can add custom Gen-2 Prius-specific PIDs: Gen2 Prius: Custom PIDs for Torque (Android App) with formulas | PriusChat