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2023/4 Prius Prime vs. used Volt?

Discussion in 'Gen 5 Prius Main Forum' started by hill, Nov 20, 2023.

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  1. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Deja vu ... did Totota make a plugin similar to Chevy Volt?!? What do you think?

    https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1139275_review-2023-toyota-prius-prime-plug-in-reboots-volt-formula

    1st & foremost - the author is incorrect. Both of these 2 Plugin hybrids have stronger & weaker points than the other. Having owned/driven both Chevy Volts & Prius Primes - this review caught my eye. So I'm sure there are plenty of others in this category having driven both - &considering the responses to the article.

    Having had mileage in both, here are a dozen neutral & personal observations;

    1- heater in Chevy Volt it's resistance so Prius generally wins - unless it's REALLY cold - which cripples heat pump's efficiency to a certain extent.

    2- egress Ingress is a tie ... as both try for low drag CD which necessarily makes for a low sloping windshield & hood.

    3- electric range is 25% better in the Volt so it wins. Yes you can get an extra 10+ miles out of the prime & you can get 10+ more miles in the Volt so that (driving style) makes no difference.

    4- Heated seats & steering wheel. Both have it (available) so it's a tie.

    5- charging speed available on the volt is faster at 7.2 kW so it wins.

    6- EPA's mpg while running in traction pack discharged / depleted mode highway is 47mpg for the Prime & 42mpg for the Volt so Prime wins.

    7- traction pack thermal management for the prime is air-cooled while the Chevy Volt is liquid cooled - so Volt wins.

    8- seating for 5 in both - but due to battery configuration the 5th seat in The Volt is very small so Prime wins

    9- cargo capacity (rear seats up or down) in the volt is 10²'-30²' while the Prime is 20²'-26²' so the Prime wins.

    10 - availability for the Volt can only be had as used now but the availability is good - whereas Prius Prime is in short supply so many owners have to pay over MSRP. But prime has a full manufacturer warranty whereas the Volt only has whatever warranty remaining of its 8-year 100K mile hybrid system warranty .... a win for the prime.

    11- Interior look & feel goes to the Prius Prime over Volt, as it's Dash / display is ½ decade newer ... despite being obscured to some drivers - due to some people's height

    12- Exterior Aesthetics is subjective so from reading other's views I would estimate it's a tie.

    One take away from the linked article is that Toyota should have been able to best the Volt in ALL categories - having ½ a decade to work on those improvements. Yes? No?

    Edit:
    Quick editorial on the author's view regarding power. Not true that the prime has less power than the volt. He must mean when you are only using electric, but due to the way the prime is configured it's ICE is brought into play when total HP is calculated.
     
    #1 hill, Nov 20, 2023
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2023
  2. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    As much as a Volt enthusiast would like to chalk that up as a win, it is actually overkill. The situation is not binary. Prime has proven very effective with air cooling.

    GM over-engineered Volt and obsession with more blinded those supporting it from acknowledging want over need. It was history repeating itself. Some never learn.

    That overkill is what ultimately led to Volt's dimise. It sure made for a great conquest vehicle. Even used ones are still a good buy. But for delivering balance, an essential for sustainable & profitable sales, it was a terrible design.
     
    #2 john1701a, Nov 20, 2023
  3. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    1st - this is a volt AND Prius enthusiast review. Whether or not liquid cooling on longer range plugins won't be determined until the prius prime's larger traction pack (as of 2023) continues to age. Many original pip & prime owners are bringing up diminishing ev range. But the fact that the prime RAV4 went liquid cooled shows that it's especially necessary with larger batteries .... ah la Chevy Volt - most still reporting full range - some with 150K+ miles. but if you believe what you believe any way - thank you for your view.
    Asked and answered -over several years here on PC.
    People are moving away from smallish cars. That's why Prius saless have taken a dive over the past several years. That's why Ford killed off several of its smallish cars as well.
    So - maybe Toyota might not "know their audience"? They got caught with their pants down being short on traction pack long-term suppliers ...... so that will sadly affect sales for some time to come. Once they get their act together w/ battery availability, people will certainly go nuts for the prime RAV4 and it's larger liquid cooled battery
    ;)
    Hopefully no one else will knee-jerk/drama react to individual observation/point.
    .
     
    #3 hill, Nov 20, 2023
  4. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    That is both anecdotal and moving the goal posts.
     
    #4 john1701a, Nov 20, 2023
  5. KMO

    KMO Senior Member

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    I'm afraid the Prius does have a liquid cooled battery - so you'll need to squabble about one of the other points.

    (And maybe that means the Prius is over-engineered and overkill and it will lead to its demise?)
     
    #5 KMO, Nov 20, 2023
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  6. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    again w/ the nebulous 'goal posts' ....
    the irony in this is;

    .... 'having it both ways'

    on the one hand - we have 2 great cars that are eerily similar ... size, range, features etc. GM stopped production. you say it's because Volt is 'overbuilt'? & "catered to enthusiasts"?

    on the other hand, the Prime Prius now mimics many/most of the Volt attributes.

    Isn't that too? - moving goal posts?
    it seems upon reading - some saying it does have liquid cooling others saying it doesn't have.
    If so - that would further erode & cut into John's squabble ....
    ;)

    still ... eerily similar
    .
     
    #6 hill, Nov 20, 2023
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2023
  7. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    .
     
    #7 john1701a, Nov 20, 2023
  8. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    .
     
    #8 john1701a, Nov 20, 2023
  9. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    That is exactly what was meant by moving goal posts. Context was with regard to the past, observations related to older models.

    The market is very different now... hence, know your audience. It makes sense that targeting has changed since long ago... hence, technology adapting accordingly. Knowing that provides insight as to why certain design decisions were made back then and what allows them to be different later.
     
    #9 john1701a, Nov 20, 2023
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  10. Preebee

    Preebee Senior Member

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    "Other's views"??

    You mean Gokhan? :LOL::ROFLMAO:

    The G5's styling is award winning and beloved by basically the entire planet.
     
    #10 Preebee, Nov 20, 2023
  11. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Don't leave out the "essential for sustainable & profitable sales" part.
     
    #11 john1701a, Nov 20, 2023
  12. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i thought the author came to a strange conclusion after reading the article
     
    #12 bisco, Nov 20, 2023
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  13. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Sustainable will turn on the amount of years. Volt was in production 8 years but the Prius V and C saw less years. Whether the prime is in production for more than 8 years (remember? Smallish cars are less & less in vogue now days?) is still to be determined. Especially with so many other/bigger models & manufacturers turning out plugins
    .
     
    #13 hill, Nov 20, 2023
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  14. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    plus toyota never makes enough to fill demand, probably cause they are unprofitable, except for carb credits
     
    #14 bisco, Nov 20, 2023
  15. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Cargo capacity - Is the range given here with seats up and down? Fueleconomy.gov lists the Volt at 19 and the Prime at 20 cubic feet. They don't like decimals over there. I know the Chevy site listed it at 10 to 11 sq.ft., but I believe the consensus was that it was just the space up to the belt line or seat backs, not to the ceiling.

    Talk of the Volt's cancelation always seems to overlook the fact that GM was stopping all production at that factory. They also cancelled the CT6, LeSabre, and Impala. The Volt could easily have been collateral damage from the end of full size sedans.
    Any source for this? I think it makes sense. While the gen4 had plenty of room to improve to improve over its battery package, the gen5 increased the capacity, which means increased size. Air cooling requirements leads to a bulkier pack.

    Why liquid* cooling may require more engineering, whatever that means, the superior cooling attributes can mean the use of less costly cells. Air cooling will more likely lead to larger spikes in high temps, and that requires chemistries that are more heat tolerant.

    *The Rav4 Prime uses a refrigerant cooling system, and it isn't the only one to do so. It's a liquid part of the time, and it has many of the same benefits as a liquid system.

    Maybe they need the batteries for the new Camry that will be hybrid only.
     
    #15 Trollbait, Nov 20, 2023
  16. KMO

    KMO Senior Member

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    Don't know where the simplest marketing blurb is, but New Car Features goes into detail. The A/C system can move a valve to send refrigerant through the pack to cool it, presumably similar to the RAV4 you describe. Not heat, that remains just electric heater elements.

    Remember the PHEV pack is no longer in the cabin, which changes the situation for air cooling somewhat.
     
    #16 KMO, Nov 20, 2023
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2023
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  17. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    There is a document posted here somewhere that talks about charging refrigerant when the pack is hot and charging, but it can be interpreted as the cabin AC system, which the gen4 could use to help cool during charging.
     
    #17 Trollbait, Nov 20, 2023
  18. KMO

    KMO Senior Member

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    If you're trying to create an interpretation of something meaning cabin A/C, you'll have to find an air passage between the cabin and battery first.

    There's no ambiguity in the NCF; it lists all the fundamental modes with flow diagrams for each, including cooling cabin+battery, or cooling battery only.
     
    #18 KMO, Nov 20, 2023
  19. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    Quite different cars really. Chevy Volt gets relatively poor gas mileage in the ICE mode because it not a real hybrid. Moreover, it probably lacks most of the modern ADAS features. Its mpge is not very good either. Moreover, it is not a hatchback. It is quite an apples vs. oranges comparison.
     
    #19 Gokhan, Nov 20, 2023
  20. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    Gen 4 NCF does not show any dedicated ducts or evaporator for the PHEV battery. It looks like A/C cools the battery before charging if needed by simply cooling the cabin interior.

    Since the Gen 5 PHEV battery is not in the trunk as the Gen 4 PHEV battery, what does the Gen 5 NCF show?
     
    #20 Gokhan, Nov 20, 2023
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