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Is my Prius polluting less than an EV??

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Fuel Economy' started by Lares_Mat, Feb 28, 2024.

  1. Lares_Mat

    Lares_Mat Member

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    Hi!

    That may sound like a total provocation, but, hey, let's think about it ;)

    I really do not want to provoke - maybe I missed something?
    I hope, I missed something!
    And I hope, it wasn't discussed here for hundreds times before...

    I have to say, I'm writing this from Poland, where the most of the electricity is produced burning coal, and we use liters, not gallons and kilometers, not miles...

    Here:
    Electricity Maps | Live 24/7 CO₂ emissions of electricity consumption
    you can get an idea about how much CO2 is blown out to produce 1 kWh of electricity in Poland (and in other countries).
    If I read it right (and I of course can be mistaken), 1 kWh of electricity in Poland equals to about 950 g of CO2 blown in the atmosphere.

    If I calculate the pollution rate of my Prius, it is a little complicated...
    A good BSFC (Brake Specific Fuel Consumption) of a Prius is about 230 g/kWh (grams of fuel per produced kWh energy - few years back, I though even, it would be grams CO2/kWh - that is not true, is it?).

    1 liter of our fuel ways about 0,74 kg.

    1 liter of fuel burned in an ICE produces about 2,3 kg of CO2 (got it here for example: https://natural-resources.canada.ca/sites/www.nrcan.gc.ca/files/oee/pdf/transportation/fuel-efficient-technologies/autosmart_factsheet_6_e.pdf).

    So, if you burn a liter of fuel, you are blasting 2,3 kg of CO2 in the atmosphere.
    If you burn 1 kg of fuel (1/0,74=1,35 liters), you are producing 3,105 kg of CO2.

    To produce 1 kWh of energy you need "only" 0,23 kg of fuel in our Priuses, so you are polluting our atmosphere with 0,23 * 3,105 = 0,71415 kg of CO2, what equals to 714,15 g/kWh (grams CO2 per kWh).

    Do you see any mistake in the calculation?

    I could calculate then, that, if the Prius burns 4,01 liters per 100 km (one of my last trips about 43 km long), it should produce 4,01 * 2,3 = 9,223 kg of CO2 per 100 km.

    I'v seen in Hybrid Assistant, that my Prius needs about 12,56 kwH per 100 km, so calculating backwards, it should blow 12,56 * 0,71415 = 8,97 kg of CO2 per 100 km.

    These two values are not very close one to another, so I think, I made a mistake somewhere...

    I'm curious, what you think?

    Mat
     
    #1 Lares_Mat, Feb 28, 2024
  2. ASRDogman

    ASRDogman Senior Member

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    Remember, co2 is great for plants and trees, because they produce oxygen...
     
    #2 ASRDogman, Feb 29, 2024
  3. Lares_Mat

    Lares_Mat Member

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    Yes. One tree binds 6-7 kg CO2 per year...
    I am blowing more in the atmosphere driving 100 km with my Prius in 1,5 hours...

    And I remember, that in history, as the cars were not there yet, the trees were fine and breathing, and there was _much_ more of them on the planet, and _much_ less people.

    I don't want to start this type of discussion here!

    I'm afraid (or actually hope it), there is some error in my calculation, but I can not find it.

    Mat
     
    #3 Lares_Mat, Feb 29, 2024
    Mendel Leisk likes this.
  4. Grit

    Grit Senior Member

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    Research is out that human is contributing to CO2 poisoning also by exhaling. Still waiting for those climate protestors to take up on this issue by suffocating themselves in front of traffic.
     
    #4 Grit, Mar 1, 2024
  5. Grit

    Grit Senior Member

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    So where is the math of car plant employees driving their own cars to the plant to assemble the EV and hybrid vehicles? And the big trucks that has to haul the new vehicles together to dealerships? And all the test driving miles before the vehicle is sold? All the fluid that you drive to buy at the store to upkeep and the trucks that transported the fluid to the stores? Calculate those too, I want to know.
     
    #5 Grit, Mar 1, 2024
  6. Lares_Mat

    Lares_Mat Member

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    I see more and more, this theme is like a minefield...

    You want to ask a simple question - please check my calculation - and get answers like - "kill yourselve, you will be polluting less" or "calculate, how much less you use your shoes, if you drive a car, and subtract it from the calculation" (joke! - I couldn't hold myself - sorry ;-) )

    I considered only driving a car in my calculation, and I wanted it like this.

    The only thing, I can see after I wrote my first post is, I did not calculate the fuel mining, production and delivery CO2 footprint. Which, I think, is part of the CO2 footprint, which I took for the electricity produced burning coal.

    I read somewhere, the complete CO2 footprint of the fuel in your tank (burning to drive plus mining, production and delivery) is twice as high, as solely burning the fuel.

    So I would have to take not 714,15 g/kWh, but twice as high: 1428,3 g/kWh, and this would be considerably more, than the footprint of the electricity produced in Poland burning coal.

    This would mean, my Prius (while driving) is polluting _more_ than a similar EV...

    Mat
     
    #6 Lares_Mat, Mar 1, 2024
  7. Paladain55

    Paladain55 Active Member

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    I think the math is wrong. But yes Poland energy seems to be dirtier. Locally on the same map ours is 400g per kWh.
    My calculation for yours on a semi average electric car: 120mpge combind

    mpge = 120mi / 33.7kWh (equiv of 1 us gal)

    g/kwh mpge mi/kWh elec g/mi
    779 120 3.560831 218.7692

    Canada prius was quoted at: 127g/km so divide by 0.621371 to convert to g/mi

    gas g/mi
    204g/mi

    Looks like in your country the gasoline car is probably cleaner.
     
    #7 Paladain55, Apr 9, 2024
  8. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    (9,223 / 8,970) = 1,028. I.e. that is less than a 3% difference. Considering the variables hidden behind those estimates, I don't see them as significantly different.

    But, high temperatures are not good for a lot of flora, they slow or shut down photosynthesis when temperatures get above their preferred range. For many plants, this is already an issue in portions of their habitat closest to the equator, even without AGW.

    It varies drastically, depending on tree species, age, size, soil, and weather. I'm seeing plenty of estimates in the 10 - 40 kg/year range.
     
    #8 fuzzy1, Apr 9, 2024
  9. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    The key to guaranteeing that a Prius pollutes less than an EV is to get it into the crusher before the odometer rolls very far.

    They're great eco-cars, but there is no denying the fact that the longer they are (individually) kept on the road the worse they are for other eco-reasons.
     
    #9 Leadfoot J. McCoalroller, Apr 9, 2024
  10. Lares_Mat

    Lares_Mat Member

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    Would you elaborate it more?

    Maybe I'm wrong, but in my head I keep the thought, that it is better to use a thing until it falls completely apart, if it is doing its job (better repair it as crush it).
    Is this thought wrong?
    Is it wrong if one considers a Prius, or maybe any gasoline car?
    Or is it wrong considering any produced good (I can not believe that one).

    And generally - in the post #6 I wrote, I most probably made a mistake and did not consider the CO2 produced by mining, producing and delivering the gasoline to the gas stations.

    Mat
     
    #10 Lares_Mat, Apr 14, 2024
  11. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    My post should not be taken entirely seriously.

    I'm gently trying to remind everyone that there are a zillion ways of measuring pollution, and our sensitivities and thresholds are changing faster than our global automobile fleet is turning over.

    You're clearly exploring many of these factors, as shown by your knowledge of details of your electric supply- you understand that that counts as your car's pollution now.

    Usually a municipal central plant can burn a fossil fuel more cleanly than a Toyota car engine... but not always. I'm not enough of an environmental scientist to prove one over the other. And don't forget, everyone is playing favorites. Some people want to avoid the natural Plutonium release that occurs when burning coal; others just don't want to see smoke.
     
    #11 Leadfoot J. McCoalroller, Apr 14, 2024
  12. Lares_Mat

    Lares_Mat Member

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    OK! Understood :)

    Your gentleness disoriented me a little ;)

    Mat
     
    #12 Lares_Mat, Apr 15, 2024
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  13. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    IMHO hard to be beat a Prius Hybrid. There is a technical answer and political answer. The technical answer depends. Climate activist Jane Goodall was recently questioning if EV are so good considering mining for Lithium and so on. Politically some favor abandoning fossil fuels no matter what, as the highest priority,.
     
    #13 wjtracy, Apr 15, 2024
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