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Francis Scott Key Bridge collapse

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by bwilson4web, Mar 26, 2024.

  1. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Cost isn't the only consideration to a tunnel, but also use. Some trucks don't fit in the two current tunnels, and neither allows hazmat shipments. Those were all on the bridge.
     
  2. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    At the very least, I would expect increased shipping costs to be passed on to consumers. Supply disruptions may also increase some prices. Not just in the Baltimore are, but anywhere that was serviced by that port.
    My MINI came through that port.
     
  3. Mr.Vanvandenburg

    Mr.Vanvandenburg Senior Member

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    I changed post from President Biden was saying two separate things about commuting to, no bridges or tunnels are for me. I get vertigo on any sizable bridge, and claustrophobia in a sizable tunnel. So bad it is white knuckle and look just straight ahead down at the road time. Younger days I had no such panics.
     
    #63 Mr.Vanvandenburg, Mar 30, 2024
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2024
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  4. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    I have taken a bridge over the St. Lawrence whose surface is metal grate, and the tires skitter from side to side.

    I would hate to cross it on a motorcycle.
     
  5. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    Here's a good article on fuel as far as what we know in the media (NTSB may be holding more info),

    It looks like Dali was fueled up in China and South Korea. But some experts feel that cannot be the whole story, since the tanks would be close to empty, which of course might make sense. But as far as I know we do not make too much bunker fuel in the US, although they can get regular diesel here I presume (at greater expense).

    I am saving you all from bunker fuel chemistry lesson unless that turns out to be important. But you cannot blend just anything into bunker fuel without precipitating solid asphalt..

    Baltimore bridge crash brings scrutiny to contaminated fuel, an 'open secret' in shipping
     
    #65 wjtracy, Mar 30, 2024
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2024
  6. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    ^^^what argues against fuel contamination in a fuel they purchased is that nobody else has reported issue. There are of course potentially ways to mismanage fuel supplies onboard the ship itself.

    Really no cause yet given of ship power failure. Some early press reports of electric problems while docked in B'more.
     
    #66 wjtracy, Mar 31, 2024
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2024
  7. Mr.Vanvandenburg

    Mr.Vanvandenburg Senior Member

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    It could be the mass of that thing floating on water is unsafe to emergency maneuver if power goes out or whatever happened. Maybe they can’t allow ships stacked with containers like that to float under bridges. Or make massive deflector pilings so the ship is ruined, not the bridge.
     
  8. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Even decades ago, Tugboat Pilot income ran in the 6 figures. Seemed outrageous. Not So Much Anymore.
     
  9. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    Baltimore harbor is pretty far up the channel.
    My understanding is that the tug boats steer the ship out into 'navigable waters'.
    The water before that bridge is deep, and as such the waters are classifies as navigable.

    I could see that classification being reviewed and possibly changed.
     
  10. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    M/V Dali's hull form and her on-deck cargo will make her a play-thing with the wind in constrained maneuvering situations, especially with her limited maneuvering ability - but getting under bridges is easy-peasy for anybody who can read.
    The Key Bridge's published road deck clearance was 185', and a standard 20' Conex box is 8.5' high.
    This means that one doesn't need a pair of dividers or a room temp IQ to quickly determine that Dali wasn't a quite a tight squeeze into the port of Baltimore.
    They DID manage to get her INTO the port, and her masthead height is probably 25' or so higher than her deck cargo - and you have to see out over the containers to conn the ship properly. The Dolphins that are MANDATED in modern bridge construction (shown below) would probably knock the heck out of a container ships nose if one struck them at speed, but that ship WOULD make port with perhaps a few million in damages and some containers knocked over the side and perhaps some minor flooding.
    Dali's insurance company (contrary to popular spec-u-guessing, I do not think it's Lloyds) would LOVE to "only" be liable for that as compared with the billions that they're going to be on the hook for just in replacing the Key Bridge.
    upload_2024-4-1_11-42-22.png

    MV Dali is a throw-away single screw bulk container hull - with probably a 15-20 year life-cycle.
    Her cargo is probably worth more than her insured replacement value - which, given salvage laws is probably a little different than her ACTUAL cash value - which may still be worth less than her on-board cargo.
    ALSO
    Dali is riding awfully high in the water in the post accident pictures, and the only thing America exports these days is hydrocarbons, some aircraft parts, and armaments - and containers are not really how you want to export most of those things - so my previous comment about hauling empty containers back east may have been very much incorrect.

    Real-world mileage WILL vary.
    Wait two years (maybe three....) and read the NTSB report.

    @ Navigable waters:
    I'm "guessing" that the COLREGS line is probably seaward of the used-to-be bridge, and if you're in a channel you are NOT really IN a place where you are able to maneuver freely.
    It's the skipper's call - unless tugs are required by a port who puts safety above profitability - just like we let publicly traded companies do ALL ON THEIR OWN - right?

    Either way?
    It's a money thing.
    If you're the 11th largest port in America and you want to be in the top 10, you reduce costs to attract more traffic.
    If you're s ship captain and you can save fuel or money - you get to stay a ship's captain.

    It's a very convenient arrangement, putting safety second - until something goes wrong.....

    Then?
    Innocent people pay!
    The original Skyway was the site of two major maritime disasters over a four-month period.
    The first disaster happened because ships CANNOT maneuver freely in ship channels close to a bridge and a major port, and the USCG lost a ship and 24 souls IIRC.
    The second incident involved 35 people being killed when the original Skyway bridge (which looked much like the Key bridge used to before the recent forced-renovation) collapsed after getting smacked by a cargo ship....
    (sound familiar?)
     
    #70 ETC(SS), Apr 1, 2024
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2024
  11. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    "The Dali’s insurer, Britannia P&I Club, is part of a global group of mutual insurance organisations that pool liability for the shipping industry.

    Known as protection and indemnity (P&I) clubs, they provide “liability cover for most shipping vessels” and “collectively insure approximately 90% of the world’s ocean-going tonnage”, ..."

    A separate article indicates that about 80 insurers and re-insurers are behind this.

    There is some extremely old (and injust, according to certain sources) U.S. maritime law that potentially limits liability to much less than the cost of this bridge's replacement. Expect giant legal bills before this is over.
     
  12. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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    The other thing we export is scrap metals. Someone is about to get enough to build a bridge (I hope it is recycled).
    .
     
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  13. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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  14. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    FSK bridge bits may or may not be exported. If there is interest and land space available, they could be used for the rebuild. It would seem efficient.
     
  15. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Baltimore maritime exports in 2021 were dominated (in value) by:

    Vehicles, Coal, Transport equip., Machinery, Natural gas and other fossil products
    Ranging from 34.2% to 9.6% in value, with many other categories 3% and below.

    https://www.bts.gov/data-spotlight/baltimore-maritime-imports-exports-2021-2022-0

    Balmer is a major site for US sugar imports and I note with interest that commodity price has not jumped yet.
     
  16. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

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    Due to the way naval law and liability works it’s very possible non-deliverable goods may be a liability of zero

    Worth a watch, obscure old law makes getting as much liability from the “rented ship” run by contractors might be less than you imagine

     
  17. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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  18. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    "But first, there's the business of clearing the channel of debris from the collapsed span and the other unknowns that will inevitably creep into the project. How much all that adds to the final cost is difficult to anticipate, Badie says."
     
  19. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    If you can short circuit all of the paperwork, mandated studies, and bidding kabuki then there's no reason that the bridge could not be built well before 2027.
    Draw up a lean cost plus fixed fee contract with performance and schedule bonuses and hold a lottery for the companies bidding on the work.
    The road leading up to the bridge is still intact so this isn't as much a cleat-sheet project as it is a forced renovation to meet 1980's safety requirements.
    The ship channels should be cleared well before the first casons are put down and the rest of the debris removal is a fairly trivial salvage operation without much of a time constraint.

    Heck even a Biden or a Trump administration could do it.
     
  20. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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