Doesn't take much power to get sideways on some ice. I used to love going out as a kid on fresh snow to some low traffic area and execute donut after glorious donut. The azz was out more than it was in. Dukes of Hazzard theme running between the ears no doubt.
Only time I found FWD iffy in snow was when the car needed new tires. AWD likely wouldn't have helped.
How do you keep a vehicle with under 6" of ground clearance from getting high-centered in 12" of dense snow? The plastic under-body panels help, but don't work miracles. I drove a 2010 & 2012 Prius for 15 years in less-deep versions of that snow I'm accustomed too (un-groomed farm roads, not groomed highways), and still had to pull them out with the aforementioned F-250 a couple times. Going down the farm road while plowing champagne powder up and over the top is a joy, but that was rare, the great majority of snow conditions were not like that.
I was only driving on major roads. The plows/salt trucks were timely and I was very careful to pick my paths. Crossing the plow trails was... interesting. Driving while maintaining momentum was a total breeze. Stopping at lights or on "huge" piles of snow and slop made me nervous, but she pulled straight away every time. I was completely surprised at how well she did. (39/38psi - Ecopia )
FWD in today's Toyota is > 4WD back in the day. I can't even imagine driving in winter tires with low-normal pressure. I'd get cocky.
From best to worst in winter: AWD winter tires FWD winter tires AWD good all season tires FWD good all season tires AWD bad all season tires FWD bad all season tires Tire quality is more important than AWD, but AWD is better than FWD when tires are equal. My experience after three North Dakota winters with AWD is that you'll keep control with FWD, but AWD will keep you going when the front wheels lose traction. I ran all-weather* tires on my FWD gen3 and it handled many ND winters great. I wouldn't lose control of the car, but I could lose momentum if the fronts started to slip. My experience with AWD(winter tires) is that I have the same control, but now I don't lose as much momentum because at least one wheel out of four usually has some sort of traction. Now if you only rarely get snow/ice/heavy rain, then go for the FWD and save money on both the purchase and your fuel bill. I'd bet 60%-80% of the US population falls into that category. But if you live where snow/ice/heavy rain is a regular occurrence, or if it isn't regular but it's dangerous when it happens(mountains, etc.), then the AWD will absolutely come in handy. But always remembering that you also need good tires as well. *all weather tires are better than all season but worse than winter
Oh, if you're in the mountains... all bets are off. Go with one of these: It'll be interesting to see how the SE does - with the extra battery weight - if I get caught in some nasty again. In Kansas we don't have a season-long wall of snow drifts lining our streets. We just get to endure what feels like the most painful cold on earth lol (windy and wet).
Honestly, I'd bet marginally worse, but not enough to notice. You've got more weight overall, but it's in the back so your weight balance has shifted back with maybe a little less weight on the front wheels. If you could go from AWD HEV to AWD PHEV, then I bet you could see a tiny improvement with the extra weight because the rear wheels would get a bit more purchase. But from FWD HEV to FWD PHEV I'll bet no noticeable change in everyday driving. (Maybe a barely noticeable downgrade if a professional took them on a closed winter track like TyreReviews is able to.)
Yes, that's an interesting point. The Primes do handle a bit better on the track with more weight moved back and a lower center of gravity. In winter I might be a bit more disadvantaged. According to AI, "the traction battery pack sits flat under the floorboards, stretching directly from beneath the rear passenger seats to just forward of the rear axle". It estimates that 1/3 of the 360+lbs will be applied to the front axle, with 2/3rds to the back. My front wheels will have to pull a heavier car without a proportional gain in FW down force. I guess I'm just gonna have to let some air out of the tires if I find myself in the same situation. Just the front ones of course. Seems like the PHEV's would benefit from AWD more than the HEV trims. But my experience was in the LE, and that baby shot through the snow like a champ! We'll see how my new red "tank" goes.
I'm still wanting to know how it could avoid becoming high centered, if it was really plowing through 12" of snow. Any major road in my region with 12" of snow on it, is "Closed". Often for avalanche control. Otherwise, only minor and unmaintained roads would really build up that much. Partial loss of traction is a reason our mountain passes have a stage where 2WDs are required to wear chains when 4/AWDs are allowed with just winter tires (though must still carry chains in case conditions deteriorate). On the uphill 5% grades, many old-era 2WDs would get stuck when any single drive wheel landed on a slick spot, while the 4WDs would need two such slick spots, front and rear, to become similarly stuck. With modern traction controls, fewer "cheating" cars get trapped that way anymore, but numerous cheating heavy trucks and buses still do get stuck and block traffic. Responding officers do issue heavy fines for failure to chain up, but road crews often close the roads to facilitate clearing "multiple spin-outs and collisions". It is surprising how many 4/AWD owners believe that it will let them get by without winter tires. Maybe that contributes to the excess in the ditch. I wasn't aware that mountains weren't included in this discussion. I'd need to see and feel more detail about that scene before judging it. My Prii handled conditions that at least appeared worse. P.S. Away from winter, even weak AWDs should help in hilly rainy areas when starting uphill at traffic signals. When stopping at red lights, sometimes a drive wheel ends up on a smooth manhole cover, metal plate, smooth paint, or well-polished tar. Not a problem on flat roads, but on uphills I do hear some other cars spinning a wheel when the light turns green. My older-era would sometimes do that too, but the household AWDs don't.
I already answered that. I wasn't driving on unplowed country roads. It was a "typical" city snow storm that I happened to be driving in.. while it happened. It was also our 2nd biggest one day snowfall total in history.
What percentage of of the AWD cars now out there are driving on ungroomed roads? The FWD is plenty argument is not directed at those who truly could make use of AWD. It is at the majority of the AWD cars purchased because the person felt it was better in some metric. Aiding by greedy manufacturers only shipping AWD to certain regions. Snow gets removed from major roads quickly, or the region calls for winter tire use for all cars. And as you point out, ground clearance is an important factor. The argument also isn't one that AWD doesn't help out; they can*. They can also lead to driver overconfidence for the conditions. The argument is that the purchase price and operating costs for such a system isn't worth the benefit for the majority. *AWD system ability varies. Sure it can help. It likely is compensating for poor tires or a heavy foot in those cases.
"Less than 0.1% of the American population lives in designated avalanche hazard or warning areas." In Fuzzy's region, a Prius for me is just the nice weather car. I would definitely own a large, proven workhorse with a substantial fuel tank.
Looking through the Toyota USA's Warranty and Maintenance Booklet, more succinctly searching the pdf for "AWD", in the regular maintenance there's instruction to "re-torque drive shaft nut" every 15k miles (more frequent in "special operating service"), and "inspect rear differential oil (AWD)" every 30k miles. Only under "special operating service", there's a rear differential fluid replacement, at 60k and 120k miles. Seems akin to transaxle fluid, likely all AWD owners would do well to replace rear differential fluid at least once.
So this part was not actually true, just "editorial license": In my state, fewer than that live in an avalanche zone, but somewhere around 80-90% of cross-state winter traffic passes through avalanche zones. Mostly on I-90 over Snoqualmie Pass, and US 2 over Stevens Pass. Those and White Pass are subject to regular winter closures. And chain requirements, so having AWD w/winter tires makes often makes a difference for having to chain up, or not. In the rural area where I grew up and still visit, close to half the population had need to deal with un- or poorly-groomed winter roads. Far far less where I live now, but statewide, it is still a huge number of people. Then add in the people who enjoy winter recreation in such areas ...
At flat intersections, and also on regular pavement, that is correct. But we also have hills with "special" spots and patches.
You are being naughty. My original answer to your question: "I was only driving on major roads. The plows/salt trucks were timely and I was very careful to pick my paths. Crossing the plow trails was... interesting. Driving while maintaining momentum was a total breeze. Stopping at lights or on "huge" piles of snow and slop made me nervous, but she pulled straight away every time. I was completely surprised at how well she did. (39/38psi - Ecopia )" Nothing in any of my posts inferred, implied, or otherwise, that I was driving my Prius down ungroomed country roads or ski slopes. The roads however were very nasty, with a high volume of snow.. everywhere. Airport to home; 45 mins; 12 inches; victorious. Edit: I guess I should say I was driving on virgin snow in the neighborhoods. Zero plowing was happening in there. I was following ruts and keeping my speed up.
