When Will I Be Able To Be Nearly Gasoline-Free?

Of course the price of the gallon will always affect you, even though you may not use a drop of gas.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(John L. @ Oct 30 2007, 11:36 PM) [snapback]532736[/snapback]</div>

What is the fuel source for the electricity you consume?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Oct 31 2007, 05:52 AM) [snapback]532849[/snapback]</div>

Nor would it output the same amount of pollutants as burning a gallon of gas. I just don't get it. What is the attachment to the internal combustion engine?

 

When you peel away the layers of the onion of the problem of our dependency on petroleum and the internal combustion engine, you begin to realize that large scale production of electricity can be green, efficient and cheap. The problem is, and remains, the storage and distribution of electricity.

Gasoline and its relatives have a very high energy density. That is, they can produce alot of Watts (work) relative to their weight and physical volume. It can be stored without loss. Thus the internal combustion engine, as inefficient as it is relative to it's fuel's energy density and as costly it is to our environment, both socially and politically, is king- because of it's power source. Gasoline is a highly efficient means of storing potential energy.

Until we have a means of storing electricity on the scale of billions of Amp-Hours, at kilovoltage nominal, and at hundred thousand amp current discharge capability, we are subservient to the needs of the existing power distribution grid. This concept broadly applies to cars and homes, as well as industry.

At a micro level, like cars for example, significant advances have been made in battery technology. Again, this development is framed against the benchmark of energy density. We all know, we could power a typical car for a long, long time, if we could just stick 40 or so sealed lead acid batteries of 50AH capacity in it. Trouble is, that's about 2000 lbs of weight right there.

In electrical storage, the growth path has gone from Lead/Acid, to NiCad, to NiMH, and LiIon. Each sucessive technology represents a doubling over the previous generation in potential energy density. Each advance has come with a corresponding drop in current output potential.

Unfortunately, LiIon comes with its own problems, too. While having a high energy density due to its capacity, it has a relatively low discharge capacity in the form of current and thus a slower recharge rate as well. The higher nominal voltage of the cells does not compensate for this loss in output potential. Finally, its chemistry is unstable at both ends of its voltage curve.

Another technology- LiPoly (Lithium Polymer) has tremendous promise, as it has both an extremely high energy density and a very high discharge rate. It is far superior to LiIon in an application like a car, but it comes at a higher price, and is dangerously unstable outside of its voltage range. (it catches fire and burns- and the fire is very difficult to put out- like a magnesium fire for example.) I've worked with them extensively, but I can tell you, they are too dangerous at the current level of development to put in mass produced cars.

Bottom line, if we had better batteries, we wouldn't need gas. We could undertake massive projects like dams to store energy (in the form of water-potential energy) at the Gigavoltage scale, and replace the hydrocarbon infrastructure with a cellular electricity storage one. Trouble is, War is just about the best racket going, and very profitable. You do the math.

 

John,

I too would like a plug in.

I was originally going to put a deposit down on an 2009 PRIUS, but the battery thing and the lack of a plug in model makes me re-think.

Heck for $5,000 - $10,000 more added to my PRIUS, I can make mine a plug in.

So in 2 years, if the automakers don't make a production line vehicle, I will just bit the bullet and make my own. Why buy JUST a new car when you can make the one you have BETTER!

Some articles are saying GM has a target date for the VOLT by 2009, but I've never seen the price tag. If it is a $50,000 car, duh...the plug in conversion is a no brainer for me.

Basically, I will have $25,000 for the first automaker to get me into a car with plug in capability or Hymotion is going to get a check for $10,000 for a battery pack conversion.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Oct 31 2007, 08:52 AM) [snapback]532849[/snapback]</div>

I agree with you 100% - it is a shame that we have given them the power to do what they have done and what they continue to do.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(John L. @ Oct 30 2007, 11:36 PM) [snapback]532736[/snapback]</div>

I have been wondering exactly the same thing. And of course I think of darelldd. And that he must have spent a fortune to get his gasoline independence. But I don't really think that is the case.

He can tell the exact details if he chooses, but he made a relatively large investment in the RAV4EV, which was reduced in price by incentives. Now that he has owned it for 46,000 miles it is worth much more than he paid for it, so he has potentially made money there. And I'll bet that potential profit would just about install the solar panels that he's using to power the RAV4EV. There is also the possibility to finance the solar panel installation and have much of the charges offset by the reduction in electric costs.

So it seems that under the correct circumstances the conversion to "gasolinelessness" really wouldn't be unreasonable.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(John L. @ Oct 30 2007, 08:36 PM) [snapback]532736[/snapback]</div>

Hi John,

We just had a 3.8 kilowatt ac system installed on our house, finally was able to turn it on in August. Total cost was approx $35k and with CA incentives and fed tax credit, will bring the net cost down to approx. $22k. There went my Barcelona Red 2007 Prius that I wanted to buy when I started my new job.....stuck with the 89 Integra for another 3 years.

The system we have may not generate enough electricity to get us to net zero electrical usage. The solar companies aren't trying to pitch that strategy. Instead, they pitch the strategy to try to lower your overall net electric bill to $0. They can do this by getting you on the Time of Use plan. From Noon - 6 pm, you pay/sell electricity for about 3x as much as the remainder of the day. Since you generate the most electricity at that time (and hopefully aren't using too much) you can cut your net usage by 50% or more, but still eliminate the electric portion of your bill. From August until now, we have actually generated more electricity than we used (cool summer in the Bay Area helped). But with the shorter days, we are using more than we are generating, so I don't know if by next August we can catch up to a total of net zero.

The reason for not buying a system to generate all our electric needs is that it would need to be 3x more expensive to cover the short days of the winter months. Maybe 50% more would get us to net zero, we'll see. In Oregon (Portland) you may have more issues, because if it is cloudy/raining, you aren't generating much electricity. You also will benefit if you have a good Southern exposure, free of shade (trees). Hope you don't have electric ceiling heat like a bunch of houses in Eugene have.....ugh, say hello Mr. Electric Bill.

I do wonder how much energy a Engine Block Heater requires or powering an electric scooter. I know our system cannot generate enough electricity to power our biggest electricity users (AC uses the most, Oven second, Clothes dryer third). If any of these are being used and the heating element is active, then the meter spins forward rather than backward. Since an Engine Block Heater is a heating element, I suspect it would use a lot of electricity too.

 

I think they've said the engine block heater uses about 300 watts / hour.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(John L. @ Oct 30 2007, 08:36 PM) [snapback]532736[/snapback]</div>

By my calculations, this was economically feasable about 12 years ago.

Yup, I have both. But it sure isn't the Prius that gets me off of gas! Driving the Prius is the part of my transportation equation that makes me feel guilty. While a PHEV Prius would be an ideal car in a single-car family. A better situation is a PHEV as the secondary car and a full battery EV as the primary. In your situation you'd almost never use gasoline, but could easily cover long distances if you needed to.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Oct 31 2007, 04:32 AM) [snapback]532832[/snapback]</div>

One wonders why you ask this. Especially considering the OP is talking about adding a solar system! What's your point? The current grid mix is just under 50% coal. And coal is terrible. In fact it is only slightly less terrible than using gasoline to power your car. The difference is that it is domestic, and that we have control over our electricity production. We can change it if we decide to do so. As it is, an EV charged with the national mix is significantly cleaner from well to wheels than a gasoline car. But don't even get me started on mountain-top removal and all the other crap associated with coal. I hate it! We need to stop doing it. And we can. We just have to care... and have an administration that cares.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(napatree @ Oct 31 2007, 08:33 AM) [snapback]532923[/snapback]</div>

Yup. And one of the solutions is part of the subject of this thread! Battery EVs (or as mentioned here PHEVs).

Storing it, yes. Using it in ICE automobiles where we then throw 80% of it away?! Not so much.

And that's where hundres of millions of battery EVs can make this work. IF they can be plugged in wherever they're parked, and have V2G capability, the problem is all but solved. None of this will happen over night. It can absolutely happen incrementally.

Bingo. The good news? Toyota is working their butts off in Li development. They're doing it in-house. I expect great things from them soon.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(sub3marathonman @ Oct 31 2007, 07:40 PM) [snapback]533226[/snapback]</div>

I can give you all the numbers to show how relatively painless this could be. First, the amounts that I ended up paying out of my own pocket:

Rav4EV five years ago: $32,000
PV system five+ years ago: $10,000

That $42,000 bought me a shiny new car that covers more than 90% of our driving needs. The solar system will cover the fuel for any EV that we choose to drive for the rest or our lives. $42,000 for a new car and fuel for life. Seem like too much? (I won't even mention that I could sell the car, and buy two more of my PV systems just with the profit over my purchase price)

Yes, we enjoyed some incentives on both of these. And of course most drivers of gasoline cars don't realize how much federal subsidy they take advantage of. The difference is that the subsidies on the EV and PV were in place to help us move in the right direction. By driving a clean car, and powering it with sunshine, we don't just help ourselves - we help everybody in some small way. The subsidies that exist for gasoline do the opposite.

Anyway.. it just amazes me. Before my first EV (The EV1) my last gasoline car was a $41,000 Volvo. I sold that and got into EVs... eventually installing the PV sytem and buying the Rav4EV... for a total cost of $42,000. To date, I've paid about $50 total for maintenance of the whole car/fuel system. (In an ICE vehicle this would include tune-ups, oil changes, gasoline, etc). So for five years of solar-charged EV driving (about 60,000 miles), I've paid a TOTAL of $50 since buying the car and the PV system. Gonna need new tires on the Rav soon. Might even replace the wiper blades. So that cost will go up a bit next year, but still - you get the idea.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(John L. @ Oct 30 2007, 08:36 PM) [snapback]532736[/snapback]</div>

The easiest and cheapest solution that works RIGHT now, is to simply stop using the car and scooter so much. The kids can be taken to school by bike (I'm fully expecting to hear the reasons as to why that can't happen) and using the scooter to get to work means that the weather is cooperating - so why not ride the bicycle?

There is exactly ONE reason why I don't own an electric scooter like the Vectrix. And that is because it would simply replace bicycle miles for me. Why waste the energy when bicycling benefits me in so many ways?

 

what kind of PV system is that?
how many watts/Kw can it produce?