How many Prius owners are Vegetarians?

Agreed; each culture has it's own ideals and even within each individual culture there are groups that may find what other groups do reprihensible. The difference is that we live in a free society where we are all allowed to do as we see fit, provided that our government has not decided to make what we do illegal. Some of us will choose to live a mostly or entirely plant based dietary lifestyle while others would choose a meat based dietary lifestyle. It doesn't necessarily mean that one or the other is wrong; just different. Personally, I choose to eat both plants and animals and feel fine doing so. I also would rather pay my brother to raise them and end up with a product that is a much healthier product than what I could ever get in a store and there are no questions as to its care and feeding; I know what it was fed since I helped buy it, bale it, or pump it. If you choose to eat meat, please do so responsibly and support your local farmers, not the ADM's of the world. Most of them generally care about the environment and work to protect it.

Well stated, Pat. FWIW, I was not trying to state that anyone was wrong or would immediately die from a wholly vegetable or meat based diet; just that by studying biology we can deduce a lot about what our bodies were designed for. That does not mean that one could not survive on either but that biologically we are designed for both. It is a matter of personal choice that each of us must make. Picking one, the other, or both does not make anyone wrong.

 

If this is true, then no one has ever survived on a vegetarian diet. Non-experts should not talk as if they were experts. It's better to use the conditional, or it appears to me, or something like that.

First of all, all protein comes from vegetables. Where do chickens, cows and pigs get their protein. Protein comes from amino acids, all of which come from vegetables. I have heard (ie: stating it this way means I think this is true but I'm not sure) that human protein is made from 26 amino acids. 18 are made by the human body. Therefore, we need to get 8 essential amino acids from our foods. Many vegetables contain all these, such as carrots. However, you need to eat a lot of different vegetables to get the amount of amino acids needed to make human protein.

Humans cannot directly use animal protein. We need to break it down into the constituent amino acids, then reform it into human protein. That's why eating meat makes you tired. It takes a lot more energy to digest and utilize it. It's much easier for the body to directly utilize the amino acids in vegetables to form human protein.

Re teeth, herbivores have flat sharp teeth in front, like us, to cut vegetables. The only teeth we have that could be considered carnivorous are our incisors. But these don't come close to being the fangs of carnivores. Carnivores have all sharp teeth. They don't have molars. We do. Hello vegetarian.

Beyond teeth, our bodies are much more like vegetarians. Carnivores have short, high acid digestive tracks. We have relatively long, low acid digestive tracks (which don't handle meat well). We can live on meat since the human body is amazing. However, there's a price to pay if you make your body do all that extra work. In addition, meat is loaded with toxins -- hormones, pesticides, antibiotics. It's a cancer cocktail.

The strongest animals in the world don't eat meat -- elephants, ox, gorilla (our closest relative). I quit meat 8 years ago. I'm 49 and I can still dead lift 400 lbs and bench press 300 lbs. I'm not suffering from a protein deficiency.

I quit meat, not because I didn't like the taste. I grew up on it. I like it and miss it sometimes. But I can't get over the knowledge of all the poison I'm putting in my body by eating it. And I can't turn a blind eye toward the massive, unbelievable amount of suffering occurring among our fellow creatures on a daily basis. If we make it to a more enlightened time, I think we'll look back on our current treatment of animals as one of the great tragedies of human history.

 

Very nicely said NYPrius.........

 

Define high acid v low acid. Our stomachs produce hydrochloric acid, if I remember correctly. And you mentioned ox ... apparently I am the wierd one here for not having four stomachs to digest plant material like the ox.

I also already stated that to stay away from the cancer cocktail of hormones, pesticides, and antibiotics you could raise your own or make nice with a local organic grower/producer of meats and/or vegetables. For those of us that do eat meat raised this way, we are not subject to the issues of the dreaded "cancer cocktail".

But who am I to argue with someone who is obviously a biologist since they don't have to use conditional statements when they use statements relating to the length and acidity of our digestive systems versus those of ruminants. By the way, I don't think humans can use any protein directly; regardless of source, since our body has to create what we need from it's amino acid bases.

 

I'm not an expert (ie: biologist, nutrition consultant, etc) either. The statements I made came from books I read a while ago, like Fit for Life and other books. By relatively high or low acid, I mean the acid content of a carnivore's digestive track is much higher than a vegetarian's. I don't know the exact amount. But I think that's a red herring that might pull someone away from the relevant point. Meat is sticky and not easily digested. I've read that the carnivore's system is designed to burn up the meat and pass it through quickly. With our 40 - 50 foot long (I think) digestive tracks, we are not able to do that. So the meat often gets trapped in our systems causing illness.

I took issue with your statement, "the truth is that plants can not entirely meet a human bodies requirements for life and neither can meat fully support human life", because it is wrong. It is not the truth. But perhaps I took issue in too harsh a way. I probably should have been more polite about it. Sorry.

I agree that eating organic meat is a much better way to go. Unfortunately, most people don't have access to healthy meat because they can't afford it or it's not available near where they live.

I'm also not criticizing anyone that eats meat. We're obviously all free to do what we want. But by pointing out the environmental, health and other impacts of eating meat (as this thread is doing), people can make more informed, and perhaps healthier, decisions.

 

QFE.

 

If two is "a lot", then yes. There is no single plant food that provides a complete set of amino acids, but there are many, many combinations of two that do. Any legume and any grain will do it. E.g. rice and beans, wheat and peanuts (a peanut butter sandwich -- one of my favorites!), corn and soy, peas and rye (pea soup and rye bread), etc. etc. You don't even need to be complete every day, so it would be rather difficult and require rather anal behavior to consistently eat a vegan diet incomplete in proteins.

The only thing that might require a small amount of special attention in a vegan diet is vitamin B12. B12 ultimately comes from bacteria, but animals concentrate it much better than plants. It takes a very, very long time to become deficient in B12, since your liver can store a sufficient amount to provide your needs for a decade! Still it is possible, and bacteria-derived B12 supplements are available. A small amount (micrograms) goes a long way.

 

I take a daily multivitamin, as well as eat cliff bars for snacks. There are many ways to get vitamins, gotta worry about your b12 though!

 

Thanks for the good info. I quit meat 8 years ago, but fish only a year ago. I'm still working on the "right" vegetarian diet. I'd like to go full vegan, but the discipline hasn't been there. And it's hard to find things to eat in restaurants of you cut out dairy and eggs along with meat and fish.

I'd like to cut out dairy. I've heard that humans are the only mammal that drinks milk after it's weaned. I've also heard that milk causes mucous build up and increased colds and flu's. I drink only BGH free milk. But no milk would be better I think.

I was drinking and eating lots of soy products for a while. Then I heard that soy contains estrogen, a female hormone. And that it will cause you to have smaller male parts and larger female parts. I've heard experts refute this. But I'm not taking any chances. No more soy. Although it's almost impossible to avoid since soybean oil and other soy byproducts are in so many foods. But I try to keep it to minimum. For example, I don't drink soymilk or eat Boca burgers anymore.

I admire people that can maintain a full vegan diet. I think it takes a lot of discipline in our meat and dairy intensive society. I will continue to strive for the vegan diet because I feel it is the healthiest if done well (in my personal, non-expert opinion).

 

idk, i consume a lot of soy and haven't noticed any changes. I know some women do consume lots of soy to regulate their mental cycle, and more women to control menopause symptoms, so i guess its possible.

Cows milk contains a lot of puss, sickens me just to think about it.

 

I was also passing on information that I had read in books and articles, although it would appear that perhaps there is some misinformation going regarding these issues on one or both sides. No offense taken and I hope none was felt on your end.

Perhaps I am spoiled by living on 60 acres and living in a comparatively old fashioned manner where my mother owns the farm, her mother, sister, and retaded brother live across the yard and care for the chickens and my brother raises the beef and pork in the field next to that. We also have a family owned milk farm nearby that has sworn off of using hormones entirely and also offers a non homogenized product also. They stated to me during a tour that most commercial milk producers would like to get away from hormones except that they feel it is up to the individual farmer. Of course this is a cop out answer from the large companies and they could do the same thing they do if antibiotics show up in milk; dump the milk and force the individual to pay the company and the other producers for the loss, but they probably won't until laws force them to.

What about the pesticides, irrigation costs and hybridization (not sure if that is a real word) of the plants that we eat? Is there a negative consequence to these actions also? I'm not criticizing but rather looking for answers to questions.

Also, could any of the vegetarians or vegans out there let me know where to go for recipes. I would like to see if there is a tasty way I could move closer to this goal of treating the earth well in all areas. I don't think I could give up meat entirely but there is definitely room for improvement. I mentioned recipes before but no one offered a source.

 

Puss? Where is that coming from? I also have heard that humans are the only creature that not only drinks milk after weaning but also is the only creature to get it from another species.

 

Excellent first post, Vinnie!

All tastes are formed by habit. And it is a trivial matter to change your habits. For a while you miss the food you've decided to quit eating, and then after a while you don't any more.

I ate meat (a lot of meat) until I was 19. I loved it. I now get as much pure physical pleasure out of a good vegetarian or vegan meal as I ever got from meat.

To meat-eating environmentalists:

The laws of our country allow you to be wasteful in your lifestyle. And many Prius drivers don't care about the environment. But if you drive a Prius because you do care about the environment, then why do you not change your eating habits (which is very easy to do and will not involve any sacrifice of eating pleasure) to reduce even further your environmental footprint? Yes, meat tastes good if you are accustomed to eating it. But a vegetarian diet tastes just as good after a relatively brief period of habituation. We have contempt for people who drive a Hummer just because it gives them some kind of satisfaction or pleasure, and we make fun of the size of their tool. But if you once realize that eating meat is as destructive to the environment as driving a Hummer, if not more so, then why do you cling so ferociously to that diet?

Our bodies were not designed. They evolved. And they evolved to make use of the resources available and the conditions of the environment. But we can make choices. The question is not one of design. The question is what choices do we make, within our physical limitations? We are capable of digesting meat. We are also capable of living without it. And we are more healthy without it. We also have the ability to assess the effect our choices have on the environment, and it is clear that the way meat is produced in the U.S.A. today is an environmental disaster.

You have the legal right to leave your children and your grandchildren a world so damaged that they will enjoy none of the privileges you have enjoyed. But you can make the choice not to.

Yum! One of my favorites. Cubans call it "Cristianos y Moros." (Christians and Moors.) Though the name only really makes sense if you use white rice and black beans. I prefer brown rice and pinto or kidney beans. Baked potatoes and beans is another of my favorites. (I'll get my grains in the next meal, probably whole-grain bread.)

 

I assume eating soy makes being a vegan a lot easier, since you can get almost anything in a soy form (tofurkey for example). However, I don't think soy is a natural product, in the sense that humans created it (or bred it somehow). My Asian friends tell me Americans consume much more soy than Asians normally do.

I don't think soy is meant to be consumed in large quantities. It doesn't seem like a good idea for males (especially boys who are still developing) to be ingesting so much estrogen. My nutritionist friend says that the estrogen in soy is fido-estrogen (whatever that means, is it dog estrogen?), so I don't have to worry as much. But I'm not convinced. If you look up risks of soy on the internet, you'll find many studies raising concerns.

 

"If you see a pig as a 3 year old human that is fine by me."

I don't think a pig is equivalent to a three-old human: if I had to choose to either save a pig or a three-year old from harm, I'd without question try and rescue the human first. But because a pig is clearly conscious enough to suffer, and feels pain as keenly as we do, I believe it has a right to not be harmed.

If you think about it, the capacity for compassion is really one of the biggest distinctions between humans and other animals: only we have the ability to understand the power of compassion, and the option to choose it; it's a huge responsibility as a human, but really, I think it's the whole point of being alive.

I'm sorry if I've sounded like the stereotypically self-righteous vegetarian; I sometimes find myself getting off the sopabox feeling like I've tainted the idea of vegetarianism with my own ideas, and put people who don't agree on the defensive. I hope I haven't done this: as with forming any opinion, everyone will come to their own realizations, and only internalize their ideas by their own decision---nobody's going to convince you to stop supporting animal industry on an internet Prius forum. I just honestly think that wherever you look (religion, politics, anywhere), you'll see that compassion is the only answer.

 

There are lots of good vegetarian cookbooks. Moosewood comes to mind. The Google search term "vegetarian Cookbooks" turned up 1.5 million links. Searching "vegetarian" in Amazon in Books turned up nearly 52,000 (though not all searches in Amazon are relevant, so they might "only" have twenty or thirty thousand actual vegetarian cookbooks.)

I never use cookbooks, unless I need to consult Joy of Cooking to figure out how long or how hot to bake a kind of squash I'm trying for the first time, or how much salt to use in a loaf of bread.

Come on all you vegetarians! Post your favorite vegetarian cookbook title to help out RinMI!

 

"Our bodies were not designed. They evolved."- Personal belief of yours that I do not agree with; usually when a species evolves the prior "version" disappears from existence only to occasionally show up as a recessive gene trait. For instance, the butterflies that Darwin studied eventually became fairly homogenous in their coloring/markings so that they would not be eaten as readily as their ancestors although occasionally a few will be born that bear similarites to the old coloring. As of today, I am not aware of any humans giving birth to gorillas or gorilla like people. But that is another thread altogether.

"Cubans call it "Cristianos y Moros." (Christians and Moors.)" - Once again, a good idea but here is the third request for recipes and still none have come forth. You want us meat eaters to try a vegan diet yet you seem unwilling to assist once we offer to try it.

 

Sounds like you've got a nice set up there in terms of healthy food!

I agree, factory farming is hugely destructive. Soil erosion and salination, aquifer depletion, risks of genetically engineered crops, algae blooms, water pollution, herbicide/pesticide impacts, heavy fossil fuel use, etc make it one of the most environmentally destructive industries in the world.

To help with this, I try to always buy organic. Organic isn't perfect. But I think it generally has much lower environmental impacts and is healthier.

The market for organic food is growing at about 20% annually, versus 2% for conventional food. That's why the big food companies are getting into it. I am concerned that these companies are influencing regulators and creating ways to get around the organic standard, either by weakening it or not enforcing it (via fewer inspections, etc).

But if enough if us continue to buy organic (and tell politicians that we don't want the standard weakened), we can pressure factory farming to clean up it's ways.

 

There we go. Daniel beat me to the posting by getting that in just as I sent my last reply. I would love to try any recipes you have. I also rarely use a recipe once I have made something a few times, but I would hate to try something for teh first time and prepare it the wrong way which would lead me to dislike it.

 

Socialists disgust me almost as much as fascists!