GM Volt in 2013

GM has convinced these people, through false advertising, that they are safer in that monstrous SUV. My aunt drives one. Her reason? She sometimes plays chauffeur to her two grandchildren, and she'll pay anything, in money or environmental degradation, to keep those kids safe.

The fact that she and they are actually less safe in an SUV than they'd be in an Accord or a Prius does not influence her, because she believes the propaganda.

That picture is so sickening!!!

So the EV-1 gen-2 got 140 miles on a charge, but GM does not yet have the batteries to make the Volt go 30 miles???

Something's wrong there. And I think what's wrong is that GM is lying to us. Wouldn't be the first time!

The Volt isn't anything because it does not exist yet. What it "will" be is anybody's guess, but I don't believe it ever will be anything.

Talk is cheap. Even their big ad campaign is cheaper than actually producing a car. Give me something I can drive now, not promises of technological pie in the sky.

 

Daniel, you're a smart guy, but that's just dumb.

Is Toyota lying when they claim the battery technology isn't there yet to produce a plug-in hybrid as well? I mean, the RAV-4 EV had a similar range, no?

And yeah, I know other people have pointed this out to you... but what the hey... the batteries that will be in the Volt and the batteries that were in the EV1 and Rav-4 EV are vastly different... the old tech batteries had limited lifespans and were big and bulky... the new battery tech, not so much.

 

Grow up. You know quite well that even if a technology met all the engineering criteria, it still may not be ready due to being too expensive.

Look closer at Li-Ion, that extra cost adds up. Liquid cooling is being included in the Volt design to protect & prolong the life of the pack. That's obviously something outside the usual measure.

And what about the recharging limitation of 0C (32F)? Colder than that is beyond what the battery's chemistry can handle. Including a heater for the pack to overcome that adds to the cost too.

You can't just disregard things. It's not as simple as you imply.

 

Well, yes. Toyota is also lying. So what's your point? This thread is about GM's Volt. We can rag on Toyota in another thread I guess. Both Toyota and GM have compelling and logical buisness reasons to lie. So again... your point is what?

You say this because you want it to be true? GM would wet their pants if they could find an affordable Li-Ion battery that would last as long as the NiMH batteries in my Rav4EV. These batteries are lasting the life of the car. How much longer would you like them to last? Bulky? Take half of them out, and I can still go further than the Volt is hoping to go on battery power. So yes - we can wait until we have the perfect battery. Or... we could build a car today with the proven technology that we have today. Is it better to have a car with old-tech batteries that saves tons of gas TODAY... or better to wait for a car with new-tech batteries that will save a ton of gas sometime in the undefined future? I mean we might as well do SOMETHING while we wait for the perfect Fuel Cell car!

 

The point is, and it's a very good point, why isn't *anyone* other than niche manufacturers building EVs? There must be some reason for this, no?

 

As my first Post, I should start by saying I don’t own a Prius.

In 2009 my wife and I will be shopping for a new car to replace her old gas eating V8 SUV. We have decided to put our money where our mouths are, and buy a more green vehicle. Most likely the 2009 Prius from what I have seen so far.

As we intend too own something greener in the very near future… I have been doing some studying.

First off… I am not biased toward one car company or another. I could care less who makes the best car, as long as they do actually make it, and I can afford it. I will buy foreign, domestic, this company or that without batting an eye, based upon the value of the car, with no bias at all.

Baby steps

The Prius is a baby step toward getting off the oil teat, it is a good step mind you…. I’m glad someone was really successful making that first step, cause if no one else did, then no other manufacturer of car would be working as hard as they are right now on the technology.

As I see it, the Current Prius is a Gas car… that has an electrical assist as a way to improve gas mileage.

Good for them, but make no mistake, the Prius is 100% gas as it stands today.

I’m not running them down, in fact I am planning to buy one even if the 2009 model has no plug in capability ( which I expect it will not ) and even if its gas mileage is NOT a huge improvement over the current models… I will still likely buy one.

The Volt as a concept ( we don’t have the car yet ) is a step ( a full step this time ) toward our goal. It is an EV, which is augmented by another engine when the battery runs out. That engine is currently gas, but as the Volt’s drive ( if it is what they say it is ) is 100% electric… that means any source could be made to power that battery.

Gas, diesel, fuel cell, really fast rats on a treadmill.,, whatever.

I don’t expect to see the Volt in less than 3 years from now ( I don’t care who said what ) due to battery technology, any more than I expect to se Li-Ion batteries in the 2009 Prius ( which by the way… I don’t )

The Volt is a great idea… but is a leap… and I need to buy sooner than when I expect that to be available.

The folks that said batteries are the difference between the EV1 ( which GM lost money every time they leased one cause of how expensive the car was to actually build and worse maintain, they hid that by crushing them ) and the cars of today, that actually DO plan to be production cars.

You cant make the comparison between what was then, and what can actually be maintained now.

Now the Telsa Roadster is cute…Impractical ( price vs usability ) but there will be a market for that car, and it is very close to our dream. The Zap is a GREAT idea… and I am really tempted ( if I were not such a large man ) to buy a Zap Truck.

Anyway, wanted to say and put my opinions out there…

I will settle for a 2009 Prius

What I want is a car that will do 40+ miles on EV alone and then use alternate fuel sources that is maintainable, comfortable, with modern electronics.

Whoever makes a very good one first… has my business.

We aren’t there yet, I wish we were.

 

Darell drives a Rav4EV that he bought new. Five years ago??? Maintenance cost is pretty near zero as I understand it. His NiMH batteries have shown no deterioration in this 5 years. The car was expensive, and is even more expensive now, used. But the batteries have stood the test of time.

First car to market that does what the Volt is supposed to do gets my business too. I hope it's Toyota or Honda (though Honda does not seem to be interested; too bad, they're my favorite car company for the way they treated me when I bought my Civic). But if it's GM they'll get my business.

 

Makes you wonder if the EV-1 was crushed because it too (the second edition) was zero maintenance. Manufacturers (and dealers) can't survive without the maintenance business.

 

Until I know the battery life and cost of battery replacment, then I dont know the maintenance cost yet

 

That's easy. The maintenance cost is zero because there's no such thing as a "GM Volt" yet.

 

Trust me, no car, whether EV or not, is maintenance free. Not one.

 

What a good question (no matter how many times it is asked). Let's bring a few facts out:

1) When California had the Zero Emissions mandates out, most of the major car manufactures were able to get EVs out quickly that were pretty dang good. Maybe not immediately profitable in the niche, but good enough to keep the company profitable overall. BOTTOM LINE-The technology has been proven to exist.

2) Some big spenders are committing to Tesla Motors starting up an entire production facility to make a production EV. BOTTOM LINE-Some investors with deep pockets have performed their own calculations that depend on 1) The technology being affordable and 2) The major automakers being too slow to react.

3) The PC (and operating system) business was lost by IBM to the Apples, Dells, Compaqs, etc. The Cell Phone business was lost by AT&T to Sprint, Verizon, Cingular (who in a great move, even took AT&Ts name!) and others. The Internet routing business was lost by AT&T to Cisco, etc. BOTTOM LINE-Big Businesses go stupid like clockwork.

From that, I can form an opinion to answer your question, but then you can connect the dots for yourself.

 

If the battery lasts the life of the car (as it does in the Prius, and appears likely to do in the Rav4EV) then the battery component of the maintenance cost is zero.

No car model is 100% free of defects. But let's compare maintenance requirements between a well-made gas car and a well-made EV:

The most regular gas-car maintenance is regular oil changes. An EV has no motor oil.

Most of the complexity of a gas car is in the engine and associated components for delivering fuel and air and spark and assuring the proper timing of the spark and correct fuel:air mixture, etc. All these components need to be kept in proper working order and exact adjustment. An EV has none of that.

Brake pads. While not all EVs have regen braking, a well-designed EV does, as does the Prius also, greatly reducing wear and tear on the brake pads.

Transmissions are the biggie repair job for most gas cars. While some EVs have a transmission, it's not needed in a well-designed EV. The Prius and a well-designed EV have negligible likelihood of transmission issues.

The Xebra is a very poorly-designed and cheaply-built EV, and many of them are showing battery problems doe to poor design of the charging and control of the batteries. But well-designed EVs do not have this issue. The actual maintenance on the Xebra is one zert on the front wheel thingy (the thing that rotates when you turn the wheel) which must be greased. They recommend twice a year, but once every two years would probably be adequate.

There you have the regularly-required maintenance for an EV: a few shots of grease from a grease gun once or twice a year.

Compare that to the long list of stuff that has to be done on a regular car every 5,000 miles.

The point is not that an EV is 100% maintenance-free. The point is that there's big bucks to be made by dealerships servicing your car after the sale, compared to just a few pennies servicing an EV.

 

True, but an EV will have a host of new systems that keep everything humming along. The longevity of those parts or lack thereof will keep service departments in business. The majority of parts I see failing on new cars right now are almost all electrical in nature. It's a machine, and they do fail from time to time. That was the point I was trying to make.

 

Maybe zero maintenance is going too far, but the range of things that can go wrong with an EV after the warranty period has run is much less. If a properly designed electrical part is going to fail, it will generally fail early on instead of after the warranty period has run.

 

No. A properly designed electrical part will last for years before it fails, like a properly designed anything.

What is your basis for that claim?

 

And the masses of EV's running around on our roads today with almost no maintenance requirements are proof of this.

Oh, wait..........

EV's will break. I'm not trashing the concept, it just seems this new technology is being put on a pedestal that it does not yet deserve.

 

No. You are wrong. A gas-powered car is astronomically more complex than an EV. No car model will be 100% trouble-free. But routine maintenance, which is a real cash cow for dealerships, is a microscopic fraction in EVs of what it is in gas cars, and the exponential difference in complexity means that a well-built EV will have far fewer repair issues, for a further reduction in income for the dealership.

The point is not that EVs are 100% trouble-free, or require no maintenance. The point is that they are so much simpler, and require so much less maintenance that dealerships will lose a very big chunk of their income.

Of course the Volt "solves" this "problem" by having a gas engine, so will require as much maintenance as a gas car, and since it's a GM product, it will also require plenty of repairs.

 

General experience with electronic parts in recent cars that I have owned plus dealer experience with warranty repairs. If the ABS controller is going to fail for an electrical/electronic failure, it usually happens before the first 12,000 miles. Same for the DME (Digital Motor Electronics) computer. I have had ABS sensors fail within the first 1,000 miles. And, and, and.

 

Interesting how GM put a stop to one potential source of data on EV reliability - the EV-1. The only other good sample set (the RAV4EV) seems to have good experience. I am still kicking myself for not getting a RAV4EV.