Taxes Or Tolls?

Taxes, all the way.

All tolls will do is create traffic, increase pollution and increase road rage stemming from driver frustration with the increased traffic and having to pay for tolls!

 

i think for general road upkeep, an increase in gas taxes is appropriate. for other things like bridges, a toll is best. in Western Wa we have several bridges and only one i know of is doing tolls (its also the newest)... but we also have several bridges that desperately need to be upgraded or replaced and we have a constant battle on how to pay for them.

tolls is the only thing that makes sense. why penalize someone by raising their taxes if they never use the bridge the taxes are going for?

we have the largest ferry system in the country and although it is partly funded by fares, still has a good chunk being paid for by the general tax fund. not sure if i can agree with that.

Washington is very much a regional state. the eastern part is mostly agricultural with only recent high tech businesses starting to relocate in the area (mostly because the cost of living is dirt cheap there)

we have the Puget Sound region which is very much like the Bay area of CA...waaay over congested. too many people, nowhere near enough infrastructure, cost of living is out of control, and we perennially rank in the top 5 for worst traffic congestion.

then we have the Olympia Peninsula and the San Juans. part of this is very remote, rural, big foot territory etc. small isolated towns (most only accessible by boat) residents from the ultra rich desiring the ultimate in privacy to natives living primarily off the sea.

so the state is very diversified and the primary way they use to support everything is thru sale tax that ranges up to 9 %. i have often felt that was unfair.

now granted, i understand that infrastructure support for low density areas would be prohibitively expensive or in disrepair if only the local tax base supported it so subsidized help is necessary.

 

To some extent, I can see both sides of this. It seems fair that everyone pays something, because everyone benefits from having an efficint transportation system. At the same time, paying for roads out of general taxation doesn't seem fair for those who don't use them much. Many things can be done to make transportation funding equitable, including gasoline taxes, tolls on new roads and bridges, distance-based insurance, and rebates for people who save society money by walking or cycling. User-pay makes sense to me.

 

Add tax, no tolls ever is my policy. Treat the road system as a whole, if you use it you pay a fee in tax on fuel. This also collects money to maintain less major roads that may not be suited to tolls. The petrol station as a one stop tax shop. Roads are a massive investment, they need to be looked after. Not only super highways but all roads. How fuel taxes will be applied to electric or home filled CNG vehicles I'm not too sure.

 

Dang, thought the thread was Taxes or Trolls.

(Un)changing the subject.

Talking to a supervisor of software development for automatic toll collection, she made an interesting point. When a road or bridge is built by taxes, the project usually takes a major part of a decade since profit is maximized by delays. When it is built by tolls, the project is usually completed in a year or two since the profit incentive is dramatically reversed with the bigger payoff occurring the faster it is built.

(No idea what the economic return is when built by trolls)

 

I think that is a great idea. Tax the trolls.

 

And if it is built by a government department it is built with pride and lasts longer than one or two parliametary terms but our government sold off our road building section of the department for transport back in the 80s so now we are stuck with the maximum profit minimum quality road building of private companies. Roads that need constant repair after 3 to 6 years.

Bring back governmnent built roads.

 

that sounds about right. it took 22 months to build another Tacoma Narrrows bridge parallel to the other one and its going to be paid for by tolls.

compare that to the repair, improvement, or replacement of the Viaduct in Seattle (they still havent figured out what they are gonna do) it has not even started, mass transit proposals have been bouncing around for years...and even if we passed legislation to pay for it today, construction probably wouldnt start for another year or two anyway

 

Just thinking about it, with a road you have, well, just a road. With a toll road you have a road, toll booths at every exit, often with sophisticated electronics like license plate readers and toll tag receivers, you staff to work the toll booth, staff to maintain the toll both. Energy being used for the lights and security gates. Cars waiting in line burning gas, digging for change and being delayed.

Paying for roads with taxes seems more efficient and less expensive for society at large. There's just so much less overhead.

 

Maybe they should set the gas tax as a percentage. That way as inflation increases the price of gas the money going to the construction/maintenance of highways would increase also.

 

A way of getting private investment into road infrastructure is for governments to lease roads from private companies. Tax fuel to pay the lease on the road. Oh the lease is written that after a number of years the road is handed to the government. A toll is a tax by another name.

No need for toll booths with E-tags and pay by phone.

 

the Narrows Toll Bridge has an electronic setup as well where most who travel it regularly would be smart to use. its almost half the daily cost.

to be honest with ya, its the very rude driver that is not ready to pay. i am pretty sure that credit and debit are taken as well. and as far as getting away with something?

in the first 6 months of operation, over 15,000 drivers have been notified that their auto pay account is either invalid, inactive or out of money...so, one way or another, they will get their money.

also, in the case of the Narrows Toll bridge. it is not the only option, you can detour north, south or take the ferry... because of that, i definitely dont see a reason why the general population should pay for the bridge. after all, there is a bridge that was paid by taxes right next to it.

 

I think the 'bigger picture' question in the tax or poll debate is whether roads are considered a 'public good'. Some people feel that everyone benefits, so everyone should pay through general taxation. Others feel that public money should not be used to subsidise private transportation. Compare it to the universal health care debate, and think about the consistency of your viewpoint. Should everybody pay for their own healthcare, or is it in the public's best interest to have coverage for all? Should everybody pay for the roads they use, or is it an asset and cost everyone shares? Does paying for roads from taxes sound somehow...Socialist?

 

Actually, the software mentioned earlier was to allow all that infrastructure to be removed. One of the toll concepts getting serious consideration is to restrict drivers on some toll roads to only those that have electronic passes. (Just what I need, another frigging electronic badge, pass, ID, card, tolken, smartcard, PKI device, etc., ad nausem.)