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MS Vista takes another hit

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by qbee42, Feb 13, 2008.

  1. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    From a trade rag. This could be interesting:

    -- Microsoft Exec: 'We Really Botched' Vista Campaign

    Microsoft's efforts to fend off a class action lawsuit over a
    controversial Windows Vista marketing campaign took a hit last week when executives' e-mails were presented in court.
    Redirect to the target website
     
  2. Doc Willie

    Doc Willie Shuttlecraft Commander

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    Therwe is a petition to save Windows XP on InfoWorld's site. They will submit it to Micro$oft when they get 100K signatures.
     
  3. bat4255

    bat4255 2017 Prius v #2 and 2008 Gen II #2

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    No surprise to me.

    Bill Gates got out just in time, didn't he.

    Think he knew something?
     
  4. dogfriend

    dogfriend Human - Animal Hybrid

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    The Wow starts Now.



    Or maybe next year. Or the year after that. ;)
     
  5. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    I'm sure in a few years the entire Windows world will be running on Vista, save a few old derelict machines. That seems to be Microsoft's pattern, but this time is worse from my perspective, and my perspective is pretty long. I've been designing hardware and writing software from before the days of Microsoft (back when dinosaurs ruled the earth; come to think of it, dinosaurs still rule the earth, or at least the free market). I worked on the DEC PDP-8, PDP-10, PDP-11, PDP-14, IBM 1800, Harris something or another, and VAX (my VAX experience may have come after the IBM PC hit the market). Those were the mini-computers. I also worked on the Intel 8008 (missed the 4004 by a smidgen), Intel 8080, Intel 8085, Z80, some assorted Motorola processors, and many of the Microchip micro-controller family. Microchip doesn't really count, since it came later and is all embedded, but that's what I work with now.

    I remember when MS-DOS hit the market. We all thought it was a joke. It didn't come close to any of DEC's operating systems. Here I was, writing system code for a real-time, multi-user, multi-tasking OS when out comes this piddling little piece-of-s**t OS. I thought it was toy, ripped off from another company, and not a very good copy at that. I gave it no chance for success. Boy was I wrong.

    Move forward two companies and a few years, and I found myself heading a development engineering group in an electronics company where we were all using IBM PCs running MS-DOS. Windows was just arriving on the scene. We were doing a joint development project with Siemens in Berlin. At that time, MS Windows and GEM Desktop were fighting over who would win in the PC market. My colleagues at Siemens were backing GEM, and I backed Microsoft. It was kind of on party lines, since GEM was doing better in Europe and Microsoft was doing better in the U.S. My contention was that OS/2 was the operating system of the future, and MS Windows was the logical path to OS/2. We went with Windows and jumped on the bandwagon at Windows V1.03. What a cluster-f***. We couldn't even think of delivering a product until Windows 2.0. In Windows 1.x, the various library modules wouldn't work together. Even Microsoft told us to wait.

    Windows 2.0 was an improvement. It worked reasonably well and offered some but not all of the GUI features that MAC users had already enjoyed for a few years. The user interface was pretty good, but you still had to dive into the command prompt to do any real setup and configuration.

    With Windows 3.0 Microsoft pulled ahead. Apple had been resting on it's laurels for a while, and Microsoft used the time to close the technology gap and buy it's way into the marked. The Windows train had left the station and there was no stopping it. Windows 3.0 was still a disaster under the hood, but most users didn't care about that. It was a bunch of DOS code cobbled together with bailing wire and bandaids.

    Meanwhile, OS/2 was quietly dieing on the vine. It was supposed to replace Windows, but Microsoft was developing it with IBM, and Microsoft never likes to share anything with anyone. As soon as they had a chance, Microsoft dropped OS/2 and rolled their own with Windows NT. OS/2 was a nice OS and could have been good if allowed to fully develop. I met Bill Gates and Gordon Letwin in NYC during an OS/2 beta developer's conference. Gordon was great. There were all of these marketing suite type guys running around, and here was Gordon with his big, bushy beard and Hawaiian print shirt. You had to love him. Besides that, he used to work for Heathkit.

    Windows 95 and 98 were in-between steps which removed some of the ugly code from the inside of Windows, and introduced a few gee-whiz pieces of dancing bologna user interface multi-media crapolla. They were better, but still not robust under the surface. Windows NT was developed at the same time, but took a different path. While 95 and 98 were holding the seething masses at bay, the NT guys were trying to make a good OS. They started from scratch and built a reasonably good OS, but it lacked all the fancy end-user features of Windows 95 and Windows 98. Windows NT was used mostly for servers and commercial desktop machines.

    The two Windows camps finally re-converged with Windows XP, which took the insides of NT and put fancy end-user features on top. Of course hard core server and commercial versions still exist, and go by names such as Windows 2000 Server.

    The transition to XP was hard on developers and end users. Much like Vista, it was a large jump, and there were a lot of compatibility problems and resource issues.

    The transition to Vista may only appear worse than some of the others, or perhaps it is worse. I'm not sure, but to me it appears this has been caused by two issues:

    1) Security: Microsoft has never done a stellar job with security. If they had, we wouldn't have all of the problems we have today with malware, viruses, and trojan horse software. Microsoft has always favored features over function. Rather than starting with a strong base and slowly adding features, they have cobbled furiously and produced a house of cards. They have tried to fix this with Vista. Whether the attempt is successful, only time will tell. What it has done is change the rules in the middle of the game. Developers are used to playing fast and loose with Windows, and much of the existing code does just that. Microsoft has locked the doors, and a lot of that code has been left out in the cold. It may turn out to be a good thing, but the transition is bumpy at best.

    2 Timing: This really isn't a separate issue, but is part and parcel of the security and compatibility issues. It takes time to support a new OS. Applications have to be tested and sometimes re-written, changes are made and tested, and patches are issued. Developers can't start this effort until they have a working version of the OS for testing. Microsoft wants to cut this short for Vista. Vista and XP can co-exist for a few years, but Microsoft wants to get out of the business of supporting XP and start earning a return on the Vista development. You can hardly blame them for that, but it is folly to force this before the market is ready. Microsoft's headlong rush into Vista is generating a user revolt. I can't think of a better approach to driving customers over to the MAC camp. This campaign is penny wise and pound foolish.

    Tom
     
  6. dogfriend

    dogfriend Human - Animal Hybrid

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    I still believe I should be entitled to a refund for DOS 5.0 which didn't work like they said it would, DOS 6.x which supposedly fixed the problems in 5.0 but didn't, etc.

    Same thing applies to Win 3.0, Win 3.1, Win 3.11 for Workgroups.....I should get my money back. None of those were even close to the promises of the marketing campaign.

    However, I don't begrudge Apple for any of the money spent on their products. They work as advertised and often have unadvertised functionality. They aren't perfect, but at least they provide a well designed product.
     
  7. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    I have some shrink-wrapped packages of DOS 6.2. I could send you one to make up for the trouble you've experienced. <smirk>

    Tom
     
  8. vtie

    vtie New Member

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    qbee2:
    Your analysis of the history of Microsoft was an interesting read, and fairly accurate from what I could judge.

    Concerning your remarks about 3rd party software transition to Vista, I have extensive first and experience, so let me make some side notes. It is my experience that, if your software adheres to proper programming techniques, it requires virtually zero changes to adapt to Vista (I'm talking about normal applications and NT services, not device drivers). Microsoft has closed down a number of holes, but a decent software package should not never have relied on those in the first place. For example, don't write data into the "Program files" folder. Quite some (sloppy) programs do, and are now experiencing unexpected behaviour in Vista. We have seen similar problems with XP SP2, that included a firewall by default. Many programs did not work well with that firewall. I think that should never be a reason for MS not to close those gaps.

    As you said, MS is changing the rules while the game is being played. That is true, but a simple consequence of the fact that the IT landscape itself is changing. 25 years ago, nobody thought about spam and passwords were transmitted as plain text over the network. MS has to change it's OS to react to new challenges. And they find themselves in a rather unique position in the sense that no other software OS in the world even remotely has to support so many 3rd party hardware and software products. Personally, I'm quite happy that they are willing to bite the bullet, and go through a sometimes painful process.

    On the other hand, the whole marketing strategy of MS for Vista is a complete disaster, and they are creating a lot of negative feelings in the community. People are upset with the way MS campains Vista, for good reasons.

    So, I have respect for the people who programmed Vista (I think it's the best OS MS has produced, and it can be put in the top league of current OS'es). But I have no respect at all for the way MS is bringing this product to the market.
     
  9. dogfriend

    dogfriend Human - Animal Hybrid

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    Would that make you a Microsoft apologist? :D
     
  10. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    Vtie, all good points. I agree with you about sloppy programming. The Windows world has been full of it, since many of the applications were written by amateur programmers. Even a lot of the professionals are fairly sloppy. I think this largely came from the type of person who wrote programs for PCs. Many of them started as hobbyists with little formal training, working largely without peer review.

    I too am happy to see Microsoft bite the bullet and do something about security. It's too bad it's taken this long, but as you point out, they are dealing with a lot of third party baggage. Every time they change anything it generates huge amounts of testing and work for everyone.

    DEC had a similar problem with the PDP family of computers. They were so popular and there were so many varieties that it became difficult to support them. The switch to the VAX allowed DEC to stop supporting the PDP, as well as introduce a new, more modern architecture.

    Device drivers, as you point out, are a different sort of animal. You have to expect them to be pretty well linked to the OS. I've written a number over the years, and they weren't always pretty. If the device drivers supply a good API, then it's not so bad for everyone else. Only the driver guy has work to do when the OS changes.

    Thanks for your good comments,
    Tom
     
  11. Rae Vynn

    Rae Vynn Artist In Residence

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    I have floppies with MS-DOS 5, Win 3.1, Win 95, Win 98...

    Tom, your timeline of computer OS development is very enlightening! And, it agrees with my experience, as well. I came into the computer era with an IBM 8088 running DOS 5. That was in '96. I'm usually a late-adopter of new OS, as I waited to get into Win 95 until '97 (forced to when I went to college), but I had a dual-boot with NT 4.0.

    Thanks for memory lane. Oh, I signed the petition, too.
     
  12. bredekamp

    bredekamp Member

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    I recently bought a brand new LG laptop. It's a reasonably powerful machine. It came pre-installed with Vista Home Basic. At the suggestion of the sales lady I also bought a copy of Windows XP Professional. I now know why she suggested it...

    With Vista the laptop was unusable. Vista sucked all the power out of the poor machine and left nothing for me. It was slow. Like swimming through treacle. I then installed XP. Made a huge difference in the performance. Vista is known as a hardware hog. Oink, Oink!!
     
  13. Dngrsone

    Dngrsone Underwhelmed, to say the least

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    XP was a resource hog when it came out, as was 95, if I recall correctly. I'm hoping there is a better OS just around the corner and Vista will be relegated to the same bin as ME... only time will tell.

    I came into computers in the early '80s-- cut my teeth on TRS-80, learning BASIC and a little machine code (everyone had their own customized DOS floppies in my high school) for the 8086/8088 machines.

    I taught myself C64 machine code.

    I worked on Harris H100 mainframes for a living and was a HP7906 disk drive repairman for a while.

    I hated Win 3.1; loved OS2, hacked 95 to pieces and like XP Pro okay.

    Vista drives me nuts and convinced me to make the move to Linux more or less permanently.
     
  14. Syclone

    Syclone Member

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    A few months ago, I bought an Apple Iphone. That's when the trouble started.

    I've been involved with computers since about 1978, messing around with 8080, 8085, Z80, etc., based computers. My first retail computer purchase (I had been using a variety of CP/M based machines) was an Apple IIe around 1980. I worked for Mostek in the Mid-80's. We were the guys that made the piggyback 16k memory chips for the IBM-PC and the XT. Somewhere during that time I tipped over into the Microsoft world and have built, repaired and maintained Microsoft loaded hardware since then.

    Since the purchase of the Iphone, I've been loitering in the local Apple store, looking at some of the MAC hardware. Most of the PC hardware I've seen and worked with is real "crap" compared with the elegance of Apples integration of hardware, software and 'human' interfaces.

    Two examples that come to mind are the software packages Time Machine, and Boot Camp.

    Time machine which is a disk backup package is so elegant that it would be reason enough to switch from PC to MAC. It's sort of like a package called Visicalc that was written for the Apple IIe in its effect. Visicalc, the grandfather of Lotus 123 and Excel was so revolutionary that it was sufficient reason to buy an Apple machine even if you weren't
    going to use it for anything else

    Boot camp, the program that allows a user to set a Mac up to dual boot either Leopard (OS10.5) or Windows XP/Vista is also another example of the care that Apple uses in engineering its human interfaces.

    When you invoke the program, the first thing it does is ask you how large a partition you want for Windows. Just touch the dot between the Leopard and the default 20 gig windows partition and move it where you want. The software will then set up the partitions and ask you to insert the Windows disk. Once Windows is loaded the machine will re-boot windows and wait for you to load the Leopard DVD. There is a windows program on the otherwise all Unix disk that then loads all of the necessary windows hardware drivers for whatever Mac you are running.

    I think that the next laptop I buy will either be a MacBook or a Macbook Air.

    As I see it, the Apple philosophy is to treat customers as a valued resource rather than a throwaway ala Microsoft. Based on that I'm willing to accept some of the Job's "holier than thou" high priest attitude seen in a lot of Apple people. Maybe they are "holier than thou".