Off Subject. Solar for my house.

I think that this is a fantastic idea. My wife and I have been toying with going 100% solar with battery storage for years but that plan has a few big wrinkles.

You can now install solar panels but no batteries at all. The best way is to have a two way electric meter installed (do your homework ahead of time as PG&E is finicky about this). This meter will charge you for electricity used from PG&E but if there are times during the day that your solar panels are putting out more electricity than you are using, then the excess power will flow to PG&E through the two way meter and reverse the charges. This means that it is possible to economize enough that PGE will send you a zero bill,or even send you a check.

This is not easy to do, you will have to economize, but iit is possible. Eveluate every electric device in the home and decide a few things:

Do we really need it?
Can it be replaced with a more efficient model?
Can we use it differently, to reduce consumption?
What time of day are we using it and can we move that consumption to a time of day more beneficial to me?

Examples:
- Switch to laptop computers, they generally consume less power as a complete system.
- Replace large appliances with super efficient ones. I believe that SunFrost makes a refridgerator that uses less than half the electricity as a regular unit (as with everything here, do you homework since I am writing this off the top of my head and something may be outdated).
- There are washing machine conversions that use more efficient drive motors (a lot more efficient).
- Swap all the bulbs over to florescent (you should have done this already). The florescent bulbs nowadays are a lot better so if any family members gripe, just ask then to try it for a month. Hopefully by the end of the month they would have forhgotten all about it.
- Install film on all the windows to block the heat of the sun (lowers A/C usage). Be careful to get a very good film that truly lowers the solar heat gain, everyone says that they do it but few do. Huper Optik might be a good one).
- Repaint the house 9outside and inside if possible) with low-E paint. Low emmisivity paint resists energy (heat) transfer through it so its stay cooler/warmer inside when you need it.
- Don't forget all the old stuff, install fantastic insulation everywhere, use double paned windows with the film between the panes (and vinyl moldings not metal or wood).

There are lots of things you can do and if you add them all up they can help over a long period of time.

I use to be a shareholder of a company that converted homes to solar but they went under when the big 3 automotive manufacturers attacked electric cars several years ago (I guess the big boys aren't laughing any more - here are the hybrids, big time. I will see if I can find one of their competitors but in the meantime, try contacting a company called Real Goods and see if they know of anyone that is really good.

Have fun,
Bob

http://www.realgoods.com/

 

I've been thinking about going Solar as well -- but I'm waiting until the "fabric" solar panels (texture, thickness, weight and almost the flexibility of denim) become more widely available. Their cheaper, lighter, and much more durable...

Peter+

 

DON'T HIRE BORREGO SOLAR!

If you build it yourself, you won't get the rebates. In order to qualify you have to use the approved products on the California list and it has to be installed by a licensed installer. Which is just as well as the paperwork is a b¡tch.

Do you research.

And DON'T HIRE BORREGO SOLAR!

 

Here's a place to start with info from PG&E: Installing Solar at Your Home

I did a self install of 24 120 watt panels back in 2000. The PG&E data says that you can still do it yourself, so don't buy into vendors claims to the contrary. The paperwork is a real PIA, but you can probably save a few thousand by doing it yourself. My biggest problem was getting city building department approval for the permit. San Jose should be no problem. I doubt that you need any sort of license to install the system. I certainly don't have any. Even if they've added the requirement, it still only takes the assistance of a licensed person, maybe only an inspection by them. Just go to your local library and read the building code requirements for a solar installation.

There is a wealth of information available in Homepower magazine. You can pick up a copy at Whole Foods about 1/4 of the time. Just keep checking for a few weeks. Or go to Home Power Magazine: Solar | Wind | Water | Design | Build . Next order several years worth of CDs of their back issues.

The biggest decision is whether you want battery backup or not. Battery backup means that the system just about doubles in cost. Not really worth it in San Jose. If you need backup, figure out how to use a Prius instead of the solar system.

My product knowledge is mostly from 7 years ago, so I'm definately out of date with regard to inverters. These days there are at least a half dozen reasonable alternatives for inverters. Note that an inverter is typically guaranteed for 5 years. You'll probably replace the inverter at least once during the 25 years that the solar panels are guaranteed for. I don't think anybody knows how long the panels will last, but most will easily go far beyond the 25 years. After 25 years, the current stuff will probably be regarded as obsolete and inefficient, but probably working at about 80% of new capacity.

If you ever want a battery backup system, then I think that you'll have to go with a 48 volt system (as in 4 12-volt batteries in series). Most grid-tie systems these days are much higher voltage, like 600 volts. For a self install, 600 volts is off in expert territory. One of the things they do to verify the wiring on a 600 volt system is to draw a 2 inch electrical arc. This isn't just ordinary house wiring!

Financially, anybody who tells you about 6 year paybacks should be eliminated from any consideration (unless you're paying upwards of 50 cents per KWH). I've tried to figure out my payback, and ended up with a guess that it is about even with PG&E power. There are just too many variables and assumptions about the future to really nail down an accurate figure. Like how many inverters are you going to go through in 20 years? One? Three? Is the solar installation company that gives you a guarantee going to still be in business in 20 years?

The issue of buying solar is very similar to buying a Prius. The lifecycle cost is probably about the same, maybe a little better, than conventional choices. But your money is going to different places. My choice was to support Kyocera (my panel supplier), rather than Enron. Now people think I'm green, but at the time not giving my money to Enron was more important.

One more thing. Don't buy solar panels from an oil company. They're not growing the solar business, just edging in on it. Support a company like Kyocera, or maybe Sharp. Or any number of newer companies that you may have never heard of before. Most of them have advertisements in Homepower.

My electric bill last year was about $250. That's for the entire year.

 

You need to know now much power is coming to your house. (Watts?)

Then you need to figure out how much power you're going to generate with your panels. I think the Government will only pay you to zero out how much electricity you've already used, not generate extra, which is a real bummer. So you total up your useage for the past year and average it out per month. That's how many panels you install. You get a converter to handle the amount of panels you have on your roof.

Now...you need to make sure your circuit breakers, meter, etc can handle the size of the converter.

This is where Borrego Solar messed up....twice. First they didn't bother to check if my meter/box could handle it or if the power coming in to my house was adequate. Then they didn't locate all of the stuff where the utility company requires it to be.

So I had to upgrade my electrical.....twice. I paid half the first time. I made them pay the entire amount the second time. I had all of the inspectors on my side and had the pleasure of listening to the inspectors ream them a new one the second time it failed the inspection. It was only fair since they got to hear me ream them a new one the first time it failed inspection.

You can learn more about California's rebate program HERE.

There's also the California Solar Center.

And the California Solar Initiative.

 

That's a lot of electricity. I am just curious. How does your family consume that much electricity? Do you have any special needs or a very large family? I assume you have exhausted most of the economical means for energy conservation (CFL's, extra insulation, weather stripping, etc.). These upgrades will always be cheaper in savings per Kwh than the cost of additional solar panels which would be needed to cover the inefficiencies from the above mentioned.

I have a family of five in an all electric house (no gas, natural or propane). We live in FL (so we use lots of A/C) have two central A/C units (a two and a three ton) and rarely do we use more the 1,500 Kwh/month. We are vigilant about turning off lights when not needed and turning off the A/C ALWAYS when leaving the house. It only takes a few minutes for the A/C to cool the house down to an acceptable level when arriving back home.

I still find it amusing that most people think you actually 'save' energy if you leave the A/C on when you leave the house because 'it has to work less to cool down the house when you arrive back home'. Uh Huh, so why even bother having an off switch for the A/C ;-). I have even had the power companies' energy consultants preach such nonsense to me.

I too am intrigued with the use of solar but the ROI and the exposure of the panels to high hurricane force winds (which would most likely destroy them) still makes me hesitant to install them at this point.

Rick
#4 2006

 

Maybe they are growing pot in the basement. <wink>

Tom

 

You need to read up on all of the Gov. links re: rebates, tax credits, etc.

I was required to tie in to the local grid and get net metering.

You're going off the grid. That may eliminate your ability to get any credit. I don't know what the local situation is for your area.

BTW in some areas you *can* get money from the utility company for any extra you produce. Not so in my area. So it didn't pay to put in a bigger system than I needed.

Consider some tankless water heaters. You might designate one alone for heat. If you're building from scratch, you could put in radiant heat floors. And you can still have a fireplace or two. Put in a heatalator. My parents have one in their living room that produces so much heat you have to retreat into another room when it really gets going. It heats both the down stair and the upstair. It's double walled with fans to force the hot air out. They rarely use the fans.

There must be an architect in your area that can help you with designing both an electrical and heating system for a green, ecofriendly off grid house. Definately look into the insulating foam block concrete system. You use the foam blocks to build forms for pouring concrete. Then just leave them there. They act as insulation.

 

You might want to check out R.E.C. Solar... REC Solar Power Company: A Solar Panel Company that uses Solar Panels to generate Solar Electricity for You
They are the #1 solar provider/ installer in the US.
A family friend had their solar installed on their home by R.E.C. and love it!
I happen to know that the people of R.E.C. are a really awesome group of people (and no, I don't work for them).
The company is based in SLO, but they have offices all over. Plus, I think someone said their house is in CO & R.E.C. has an office there too!
Good luck!

 

A little back of the envelope calculation...

Take my observation that my grid-tie system is about price equal to grid power over a period of 20 years. Rebates paid about 50% of my system. I did all the work myself, so we're ignoring any installer margin.

You're paying $800/month for the electricity you use. Times 12 months/year, times 20 years, times 2 for battery vs. battery-less, times 2 for no rebates. 800*12*20*2*2 = $768,000 system cost to equal an $800/month electric bill.

Ok, so these are mushy numbers, but I think you get my drift. You're not going to install a solar system that provides the same power as you are accustomed to with a $800/month electric bill. Try cutting that down by about 95%....

I think you need to get the full archives from Homepower magazine. The people who run it live about 10 miles from the nearest power line. The magazine is an outgrowth of their experience in living offgrid. It's pretty slick now, and has a lot of grid-tie coverage. The earlier copies of the magazine were strictly offgrid.

There is a gathering of solar electric people in John Day, Oregon that I recommend. It's in early August every year. The town of John Day is so large that it has a three-color traffic signal in the center of town. The only one in the county. People gather there to compare notes about offgrid living. Where grid-tie living is mostly about ecology, offgrid is more about having electricity. Grid-tie people are fascinated to watch their electric meter run backwards. Offgrid people watch their power meter to see if they can run the washing machine that day.

Solar power is a variable resource. If you size a system to operate in the dead of winter, it's going to be way too large in summer. Assuming of course that you have the money/resources to build a winter capable system. Most offgrid solar systems have generator backup for use during extended periods of no sun. Micro hydro and wind are extra resources that can complement solar.

If there is any way to get access to city power, the California government will kick in about 1/3 the cost of the equipment. You don't have to actually use the power, but you do have to have the mechanical connection to the grid. The $5/month connection charge is well worth the access to rebates. Plus you probably want to buy their power in the winter.

Solar power systems require an inverter that is designed to optimize the power available from solar cells. A computer backup power system is quite different, as it doesn't have to manage the characteristics of solar cells. So if you don't want to engineer your own inverter, you're stuck with using very specific size battery systems. The offgrid standard is called "nominal 48-volt", which uses solar connections that provide about 48 to 70 volts. The Outback brand is probably what you'll end up using. The major grid-tie brand is Sunnyboy, but I don't think they have anything for battery systems.

I'm envious of what you're doing. It sounds like a real adventure in independent living.

 

Oh, yes. Wind generator. If you can, put one in so you're producing when the wind kicks up.

 

I didn't research wind too much, but I would think they attach to an inverter just like the PV panels do. If you get wind at night, you can generate 24/7 between the PV and the Wind.