New Buyer.. Oil Question?

Where did you read this? Sounds like some dealer non-sense. If this is true then running without oil ought to really accelerate this process. I really cannot see any advantage to accelerating engine wear, so please try and help figure out if this is based on something real or mythology gaining a foothold.

 

I would wait until 4500 miles or so, the regular oil change interval. Some manufacturers use a "break-in" oil in their new cars. I'm not sure exactly what it is. It might be a synthetic blend type.

Synthetic oil should give a slight improvement in fuel economy which will help offset some or all of the added cost of synthetic.

Harry

 

"Where did you read this? Sounds like some dealer non-sense. If this is true then running without oil ought to really accelerate this process. I really cannot see any advantage to accelerating engine wear, so please try and help figure out if this is based on something real or mythology gaining a foothold."

I'm looking for a good source for my statement that running non-synthetic oil helps the piston rings seal. I had a 1999 VW Eurovan camper and there was concensus (in a group like this) that for the first 5-10,000 miles dino oil was better for breaking in the engine than synthetic. Here are some links:

Break In Secrets--How To Break In New Motorcycle and Car Engines For More Power This guy talks about how dino oil helps the piston rings seal. He says:
"Synthtic oil is so slippery it actually arrests the break-in process before the rings can seal completely... so I recommend a lot of mileage before switching to synthetic."

Here's another link: Red Line Oil: FAQs They say: "We recommend using petroleum 10w30 motor oil on break in to ensure proper piston ring seating. If you allow 1500 to 2000 miles in a street engine or 20 to 30 minutes on the dyno at low rpm, the rings will have had sufficient time to seat and the high initial break-in wear will have occurred."

Here's another link. This one is specific to motorcycle engines:
Break-in oil [Archive] - 13x Forums

In this link, look at the first post that talks about dino oil:
VQ35DE new engine break-in - why 3750 for the 1st oil change? - Maxima Forums

I think there is some truth to my statement about breaking in with nonsynthetic oil - although I can't cite very authoritative source...

Steve

 

I read all the links above. The key thing I was looking for was real test data for differences (good or bad) between using dino vs. synthetic for engine break in. Did not find any.

The next thing I look for is an explanation of why dino would lubricate differently than synthetic for an engine break in. What would be the difference in chemistry? Again I could not find anything. That does not mean there is no difference. It does mean a lot of motorcycle folks are buying into the theory without understanding how it could be true. (The Prius is a lighting rod for bad theories that are very popular.)

The worrysome part was the first link showing clean pistons vs. discolored pistons with absolutely no data of what the difference was in running the engines. I'm seeing marketing, not engineering.

On the other hand, the basics covered are true. A new engine does have the most wear early in life, so the first oil change being early does have justification. It's just that the first oil used must be dino does not have the evidence I need.

 

Well represented. Thanks for the links. On all of my vehicles inclusing my motorcycle, I've always used dino oil. I was able to get 250K + on my old Ford Escort back in college just using dino oil. My oldest car, a 95 SHO had never seen synthetic and it still runs very strong.

I did my first oil change at 2.5K on the Prius using Quaker State dino oil and a FRAM filter. My next oil change will always come at 3K from now on.

 

It is pretty much a myth that synthetic is needed for break in. The only partially credible quote was from Redline. While they are not talking about OEM engines, even they said that the engine is broken in within 20-30 minutes.

Most high end cars leave the factory with synthetic oil. Porche, Ferrari, Cadilac, Corvette, etc, etc.

Us Prius owners can change to synthetic the minute we get home from the car lot. Our engines are broken in by the time we get home.

There is no break-in oil in the Prius.

My opinions are based on trolling THE oil forum "bobistheoilguy". If you want to talk to people that really know about oil check out that site. However, even between the true oil triboligists that make a living analyzing and formulating oil there are differences of opinion on the benefits between synthetic and dino oil. I am far from an expert, and I am just spouting my opinions, just wanted to tell you what they are based on.

Synthetic is better and will help you engine stay cleaner. However, todays dino oil are much better than dino oils from just a few years ago. While ACEA oils have stricter requirements in some regards, API oils are no slouches.

I am an in betweener myself. I use Motorcraft oil which is a synthetic blend. Has about 15% PAO synthetic oil mixed with Dino. Plus it is really cheap at Walmart.

 

On my previous Prius, I used Mobil 1 Synthetic every 5000 miles regardless of age.

 

Re: Is European oil greasier???

I have made frequent posts to this forum regarding the very low quality oil offered here in North America. Please keep in mind the ACEA test interval is run three times longer than the API test regime!

The current North American oils are crap. They "pass" if they allow cold stuck rings, 100% viscosity increase, gellation, etc. What I find very strange is that in North America ALL motor oils are rated exactly the same!

For example, no matter the cheapest generic motor oil, or the most expensive synthetic, ALL motor oils here have the API "Starburst" symbol and are rated ILSAC GF-4/SM. SO the average ignorant motorist has no choice but to assume all motor oils are EXACTLY THE SAME as the API says so

In the EU, the ACEA sets the standards. Even individual auto makers can demand their own standards. Example, ACEA A3, B3-B4, MB 229.3, BMW LL-01, etc

I'm sure your Prius will do just fine following the EU service schedule while running ACEA oils. Enjoy your car and happy motoring!

 

Welcome to the group and congratulations on ownership of one of the greatest production vehicles ever made.

As a seasoned service manager for a Toyota/Scion dealership, I've seen many Prii come through my doors for maintenance. Although all Toyota products are reliable, the Prius seems to take the cake in reliability and longevity.

Two years ago, Toyota introduced 0W-20 full synthetic oil, designed to be used in the Prius/Camry Hybrid, Camry 4 cylinder, Rav4/Highlander 4 cyl (2AZ-FE), Scion Xb, Tc, '09 Corolla/Matrix, and Tundra/Sequoia/Land Cruiser with the 5.7V8. It has proven to be a phenomenal oil yielding 3-5mpg (average) increases. Using it with a genuine Toyota filter (the best choice, as it has a check valve the keeps oil in the top of the engine to eliminate dry starts) has kept my Prius customer base especially happy.

I would change your factory oil (shipped with 0W-20) at 1,000 miles, again at 5,000 miles, then every 5k thereafter, rotating the tires at every oil change. That way, you'll know that when your odo hits 5k increments, you'll need to change your oil. 3,000 mile oil changes, especially on a Prius, are wasteful, as this oil and modern engines are designed to run much further between oil change intervals. I bought my Prius in November and haven't had a chance to see summer FE, but am quite satisfied with the average of 50.1mpg that I've gotten since changing my oil at 1,000 miles (I currently have 2,800 miles on the odo). In Indiana, we have severe winters and extremely cold temps, yet I'm able to keep my averages far beyond the Monroney sticker pasted in the window.

Good luck and let me know how it goes.

Erick Faust
Asst. Service Manager
O'Brien Toyota
Indianapolis, IN

'08 Barcelona Red #2, Scion Tc self-dimming rear view mirror w/ homelink, EV circuit, EBH, mudguards, foamed front end, exact mats

 

Re: Is European oil greasier???

Whoa! Time-out!

I disagree.

All North American motor oils are not rated the same. A quick trip to Walmart or any other store which carries a good selection of oils will offer proof for that statement. High qualty motor oils on the shelf will list the API certifications AND the ACEA one which have been passed. There are "several" which have ACEA listings.

I can tell you feel strongly about your statement, but I wouldn't want our European brothers to get a wrong impression of North America.

 

Re: Is European oil greasier???

Yes, they are

No matter the cheapest generic oil, or a very expensive synthetic, the API/ILSAC only has ONE rating: GF-4/SM. All have the "Starburst" rating, thus all imply equal quality

The API in no way separates the quality difference between a generic oil or a synthetic.

The ACEA has many different specification levels, and motor oils can meet more than one rating. For example: A1/B1, A5/B5, A1/A5, A3/B3/B4. If you examine the detailed ACEA test regimes, there are VERY clear differences in intended service and oil service interval

The ACEA is very clear that only some certifications, such as A3/B3/B4 or A5/B5, are intended for very servere operating conditions or very extended oil change intervals. The ACEA also has zero representation by oil companies, they are purely an engine maker and equipment maker organization

In the EU, the car maker can also specify their own specifications far beyond what ACEA has. For example, VW 506.xx, BMW LL-xx, Mercedes 229.x. Some of those ratings cover oil change intervals of 24 months or 30,000 miles

What exactly has API done to even determine an oil change interval? As they are sponsored by the oil companies, that would probably be the 3,000 mile average now common in the qwik-loob industry

There is no mention by the API of "severe" duty, nor do they even pretend there are differences in operating conditions or motor design. There are rare exceptions, such as the VW standards or the MB standards for vehicles sold in North America

Yes, you can find oils that are cross rated to ACEA and API specs. One such oil is Mobil 1 0W-40 European Car Formula. It's not rated "energy conserving" but it IS rated ACEA A3/B3/B4.

There are many European lurkers who are probably quite shocked that we fret about "pushing it" to 5,000 miles or 6 months, when in the EU the average car is at least twice as long. Many cars offer standard 24 month or 30,000 mile oil change intervals with no ill effect

You bet I'm rough on the API. They allow a "pass" if the oil thickens 100% in use, if it experiences cold gellation, if it causes cold stuck rings and cold sludge.

 

How does that oil compare to the Mobil 1 0W-20 intended for Honda and Ford motors? I called my Toyota dealer and he claims the Prius ships with a 5W-30. He also insists the factory oil be left in 5,000 miles

The exception is my FJ Cruiser. My dealer wanted the first oil change at 3,000 km or 1,800 miles. I had the oil sampled at 2,400 km and it was trashed, so I had it changed early

I'm still wondering why the Prius operated in the EU - along with other Toyota models in the EU - offer 12 month or 10,000 mile oil change intervals

 

I question the "knowledge" of your Toyota dealer. Before recommending Toyota's 0W-20, I called my technician hot line at Toyota and grilled several engineers. Indeed, the Prius is shipped with 0W-20 in the crankcase and they unofficially recommend that the oil be drained after 1,000 miles. The reason that they take the 'unofficial" side of the fence is that they don't want to be inundated by hoards of technicians and customers wanting to know the justifications of the first interval, especially when a 5,000 mile first oil change CAN suffice.

Toyota's 0W-20 full synthetic oil is the first oil that a vehicle manufacturer specifically developed (in house) in conjunction with post '06 engines, (other manufacturers toss the specs to an oil manufacturer so as to have the oil "formulated" to their specs), specified in my earlier post, with the ultimate goal of running this oil throughout its entire lineup by 2010. By that juncture, the 3.3/4.0V6 and 4.7V8 will be phased out (it's not recommended that they use 0W-20), giving way to more efficient and tighter engines. In addition, Toyota will probably start recommending 10K oil change intervals, perhaps even longer.

I put in 0W-20 Toyota full synthetic in my wife's '07 Camry and my '08 Prius at 1,000 miles and immediately saw 3-5mpg increases. Having amassed this and my customer base data with this oil, I'm very impressed with what I've seen.

Erick

 

Well, see, that's a problem. It isn't at all unusual for forum members to quote many different dealer responses to the same bloody question.

Or, in my case, actually calling the official Toyota help number and being told "follow the owner manual and maintenance book recomendations." My owner manual states to only use 5W-30 although 10W-30 may be allowed

Unless these forum member - myself included - are lying or otherwise making stuff up as we go along, then there is a very serious communucation problem with Toyota

I have checked out the new Tundra pickups with the 5.7 litre V8. The oil filler cap clearly states to use a 5W-20 or 0W-20. So unless Toyota is in the oil production business, they will source a company like Mobil or Shell to make and brand the oil for them

I am aware of car companies and oil companies working together, but not in North America. VW got together with Castrol to develop the LongLife II 0W-30, which allows up to 24 month or 50,000 km oil service intervals

Volkswagen Servicing Plans : Volkswagen UK

http://www.volkswagen.co.uk/assets/common/content/owners/Longlife_servicing.pdf

There are other car companies who worked closely with the oil company to develop a long life high performance oil

http://www.castrol.com/liveassets/b...LX_Professional_Powerflow_BMWLL04_03_07_d.pdf

I would be absolutely thrilled if you could post an official Toyota document stating what you have posted. The only "official" documents we have seen posted to date are various TSB's stating to *only* use a 5W-30 in the Prius

 

I've attached the oil TSB. As you will see, the Prius IS NOT listed. Toyota told me that a new TSB would be issued at any day. With that said, I have seen nothing but excellent results per using 0W-20 Toyota brand full synthetic oil.

I'm also researching Mobil1, Royal Purple, Amsoil, etc. I have used Mobil1 and Amsoil (AMSOIL - Synthetic Oil, Motor and Engine Oil, Lubricants, Air Filters, Oil Filters and Greases) in my prior vehicles, '05 Tundra and '05 RAV4 with excellent results.

Erick

 

Thank you for posting the TSB. I'm sure you understand the quandary we face. As I suspected, there is nothing “official†from Toyota USA or Toyota Canada regarding the use of any viscosity but 5W-30 in the Prius

A forum member from Japan was nice enough to scan the viscosity page from his owner manual. I don’t even pretend to understand Japanese, but his manual clearly states a wide range of viscosity from 0W-20 and 5W-20 up to 10W-30

I have had excellent results – as per used oil analysis – with Mobil 1 0W-20 and up to 16,000 km oil change intervals. With my FJ, I have had excellent results with Esso XD-3 0W-40, and by April or May will find out how the Mobil 1 0W-40 is holding up

As a 5W-20 or 0W-20 is very difficult or impossible to find in the EU, most of the Prius drivers there will run a variety of ACEA approved oils in viscosity most common to the EU market. That means primarily an xW-40, such as 0W-40, 10W-40, 5W-40, etc. Or they can try a xW-30 intended for VW, Audi, Opel/Vauxhall, etc

 

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Screaming things in multiple posts on the site will run up your post count, but it will not mean your facts the way you present them are correct. Seriously, before you continue to run down North American oil, you need to visit the sites of name brand oils and examine their certifications. You seem to make hay of quoting an oils API ratings while ignoring its ACEA certifications. You also appear to like to name an obscure grade of a name brand oil which has ACEA specs without making it clear that there are many grades in that name brand which have the same certifications.

Perhaps a more accurate assessment of your position might be stated as: North America's testing standards are poor compared to Europe's. Any oil meeting only North America's standards does not approach the quality of European oil. Only buy oil which also lists European certifications.

Now that position I can get behind.

 

Did you even bother to read anything I've posted? Or are you calling me a liar just to suit your beliefs?

I'm going to repeat this again in case you were not paying attention:

There is only one bloody "standard" for North American API/ILSAC "Starburst" oil: GF-4/SM. No matter the cheapest generic oil, or a synthetic 10x more expensive, they only get the one rating of GF-4/SM

This wonderful API "standard" allows gellation, purposely ignores cold stuck rings, and purposely ignores cold black sludge. There is no mention anywhere in this "standard" of various levels of service (Light duty, severe duty, etc) or length of oil change.

Oh, by the way, their claims of "fuel economy" improved oil is based on theoretical gains over a reference oil, a heavy duty 15W-40! Kind of odd how they compare a PCMO claiming to have 2% fuel economy "gain" over a HDMO intended to fight soot and sludge in a Cummins motor

Oh, unlike the API "Starburst" standards, the API heavy duty standards like CF/CI/CJ-4 specifically test to ensure no piston crown land, ring land, cold stuck rings or sludge issues

Yes, there are oils that are cross-certified to ACEA specs. For example, Castrol Syntec 0W-30 is made in Germany, it carries the API SM in addition to the ACEA A3/B3/B4. However, it is *not* considered a "fuel saving" oil by the API

If you look around, all of the better semi-synthetic oils and synthetic oils with cross certification all have one thing in common: they are NOT conventional API oils. There is no way a conventional min-spec API oil would ever meet any ACEA standards

You state that "name brand oils" have ACEA certification. So I went to the Mobil site and looked at their Drive Clean 5000, a very popular conventional oil

Mobil Clean 5000

You will note this product meets API/ILSAC SM/ GF-4. There is no mention whatsoever of any ACEA certification

Ok, let's try Mobil Clean 7500, another popular conventional oil.

Mobil Clean 7500

Hmm, it also meets API/ILSAC SM/GF-4. There is no mention of any ACEA certification. That's odd

Let's try Mobil High Mileage

Mobil Clean High Mileage

Just API/ILSAC SM/GF-4. I have no doubt that the above mentioned Mobil oils differ in quality. For example, the advertising claims they are good for different service intervals. Yet they all have the SAME EXACT rating from the API/ILSAC

The various Mobil 1 oils are cross certified to ACEA. For example, Mobil 1 0W-20 also meets ACEA A1/B1

Mobil 1 0W-20 Advanced Fuel Economy

Their 0W-40 has a long list of builder approvals and ACEA approvals

Mobil 1 0W-40

But one thing in common with all grades of Mobil 1: they only carry the API/ILSAC SM/GF-4 rating. So in the eye of the API, they are all rated exactly the same. The additional ACEA ratings are related to additional test regimes carried out to EU spec. They have no comparison to API test regimes

Lets take a peek at a very popular conventional Valvoline product:

http://www.valvoline.com/products/All-Climate.pdf

Hmmm, just API certifications.

Ok, are we done?

 

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