# of minutes the A/C will run w/o ICE

I should have qualified that statement...I wasn't referring to a house. As far as I can tell, the $80 5500 BTU units that you buy at a big box store (Wal-Mart, Best Buy, Circuit City, Home Depot, etc.) only use 450 to 550 watts. What I mean for a vehicle the size of a truck, they are far lower power consumption than the expensive truck systems or the recreational vehicle roof systems and far less than the boat air systems (not the water/air systems). Almost half the power used. Although I haven't checked the latest and greatest since 2006 so maybe someone has come out with something. I could use the cheap 5k BTU window unit and my options two years ago was to either get two 6 volt golf cart batteries (which I think the big ones are 410 amps) or one big 12volt AGM battery which I think the largest one was 235amps. Now the lead acid battery lose their power rather quickly after a short number of recharge cycles yet the lower amp AGM has a much more steady power loss per cycle.

The issue is even 235 to 410 amps with enough power to recharge them will fully power that A/C unit through the night and a recharging system for the day, however sunlight against a vehicle basically requires a generator, however I've always wondered how much less generator I could get away with should I use Lithium Ion batteries, solar panels (I think last time I checked I could have 225 watt total in panels on the top...maybe it was 300, I forget). The reason I mention the power tool lithium batteries is I can get these batteries for next to nothing through my family, so I've toyed with the idea of creating some sort of system...and that was back when the NiMah were big....but even then it's likely the better bet is a generator and not worry about the hassle of battery power and just use the battery power for the night.

It's neat to know the charging of these hybrid batteries are happening at 200 to 300 volts and it's only 6.5amps to charge...I'm sure I don't fully understand how this works, but I know the alternator charging a battery bank is an impossible task...you basically need a generator...I just hate the noise a generator makes even in the engine compartment.

 

10 amps ...120 watts...it would be interesting to know more.

Well, it's not so much the price that I dislike with the truck systems that I have seen, it's more the space they require overall with the whole system in place is far larger than what I have come up with as a solution, seem to use far more power with less power source and are louder. Even RV systems, the most efficient one is a 8300 BTU at 8 amps x 115 amps which would put it at 920 watts...double the wall units at 5500 BTU (which is enough BTU for what I'll need)

What I have come up with is an Onan generator (which apparently is now bought by Cummins...or maybe they always were...well, I can't find it...it was a small gas powered generator.)

Apparently the solar panels have increased from 75 watts to 80 watts and now have 123 watts and 246 mobile panels. So that's good news (but only on sunny days)...now known as SunForce...there may be better products. The problem with these type of products is finding the website that has what you are looking for...most places don't cater to mobile applications, so I don't want to take what is offered (which are mediocre in my opinion) by these trucker a/c products yet I do think I have a solution, but I just need to follow through and start buying the products and putting it together.

 

Sine Wave is what I use...no modified sine wave here. I'm not sure I know enough to answer the first paragraph.

Dometic has a 7100 at 6.6amps for the compressor which is 759 watts, but I assume you have to add the fan amp of 2.5 and you've got a double power hungry system. It's possible on medium that these units may be as or more efficient as a wall unit.

Air Conditioners, Heat Pumps and Accessories: Duo-Therm Brisk Air 57908 RV Air Conditioner - Polar White - 7100 BTU - Cool Only (Opt. Heat Strip Avail) from MotorHomesandMore.com

These are the kind of ridiculous systems they are offering truckers.

Espar - Air Condition

 

Oh, sorry. It's for a gasoline Volkswagen Eurovan Camper so the space is rather small. I used the terms RV, trucker & boat vessels, because those are the vehicles that products are made. The van has been torn apart and customized inside and the only thing I haven't figured out is the air conditioning system technology to put in it. The vehicle looks like a regular VW van with the camper exterior parts removed, so even if I did go with the higher power consumption RV products, I'd have to countersink/flush mount it into the roof so that the vehicle will fit into the 7 foot garage and I also don't want it to look like a camper on the outside, which is another motivation to use the much smaller, much less power consuming 5500 BTU air conditioner units which use about 500 watts on max power. The best idea I could come up with is one of these small A/C units, some flush mounted solar panels on the top of the van, a Micro Onan Lite generator in the engine compartment (battery relocated) and special metal housing welded into the engine compartment with a 235amp AGM (non-enclosed) or a dual 6 volt 410amp (enclosed lead acid). I'd place it in the front of the vehicle for sound reasons and ventilation reasons. It's been a project of mine since 1999, this one is a 2003 and well I've tried various compressor-less systems things from a BayAir ice unit to various fan thermostat controlled units, but the only way to do this is with a power hungry compressor to make it comfortable.

So my findings is boat vessels for the most part use water and the ones that don't are clearly for shorepower as they use a lot of amps even at low BTU ratings. Truck systems are complicated and targeted specifically to work only with diesel big rigs and recreational vehicles have the top mounted systems which stick up 10 or more inches and are huge when you look at the dimensions...they aren't practical in energy consumption and size. There are some custom individual compressors and fan systems for vans which are primarily European companies, but I can't make sense out of putting together an air conditioning system or at least it seems complicated. So the system I have is rather complicated, i.e. I'm looking at a sinewave inverter, high amp capacity battery(ies), a micro onan lite generator custom placed in the engine compartment, and a charging system for the batteries.

I've also looked into emergency vehicle units, which aren't any help.

Carrier came out with a truck solution in late 2006. This is new and likely far better than the previous "best" solution which was the Espar. http://www.trucktrailer.carrier.com/Files/TruckTrailer/Local/US-en/trucktrailer/comfortpro.pdf

 

I've never found a sine wave inverter that wasn't ridiculously expensive.

Dometic has a truck line which are all-in-one units that I could install inside the vehicle and it is at relatively low amps, but still a large size compared to what I'm look at with the small "window" unit.

Dometic Truck Products

As far as the location of the window unit, where the best location would be that would minimize noise and be discreet I'm not sure. I'm likely going to put it in the rear roof in a similar custom fashion as the Roadtrek.

http://www.roadtrek.com/_images/thevan_page/thevan6.jpg

These type of customized vans are not popular in the states but are widely popular in Europe, so I suppose someone has figured this out.

I'm assuming these Onan gas generators hook up to the vehicles fuel system. The propane tank on the van has been removed because I removed the LP heater & refrigerator, so I could get the even LP Onan Lite generator, but I hate finding propane stations. I'm told the Webasto replaces the existing piece in the VW tank where the gas lines come in and adds the access for those heater lines. Cummins Onan RV Gasoline Generator Comparison

The LP heater will be replaced by either a Webasto Airtop 2000 Air Top 2000

Option 2: Espar Gas Heater
Most likely the best and most expensive option which work well in any vehicle.One word of warning. The late model EV's have a gas tank that is pressurized to around 1psi. Make sure that doesn't cause a problem with the pulse pump that the Espar heater uses (you'll need to drill a hole in your gas tank). BTW: VW did offer a gas heater in the EV for Europe. You might want to go that route (get the actual VW parts).
Espar AIR HEATERS

Other Options: This is likely similar to the 10amp @ 12 volt heater that you are talking about... http://www.bramclassauto.com/SouthWind.php

Ambulances and Trucks
Danhard Inc.-Automotive air conditioning manufacturer since 1963.Specialty vehicle,115 volt and aftermarket systems

They have what seems to be new, a A/C called BlueCool Truck
http://www.webasto-us.com/am/en/am_trucks_aircon.html

They have a variety of products for A/C & heat.
http://www.webasto-us.com/am/en/am_vans_aircon_990.html

I'll have to locate where I put the list of links of various vehicle air conditioning systems which are primarily based in Europe. These are the U.S. links that I found that may be a solution. The solution seems rather complex.

You can buy all the stuff do build your custom A/C system from Danhard Inc.(http://www.danhard.com)...And since I will likely need 120Vac power to run the air-conditioner and to run the fridge/freezer, I could just add a heat-strip and you can have a combo heating/cooling unit, but a gas heat system seems like it'd be less hassle.

Actually, I have seen a VW piece (part of either the Webasto or Espar kit) that replaces the existing piece in the VW tank where the gas lines come in and adds the access for those heater lines. So it should be totally plug and play.

The Espar is a great heater. Many of these have been installed and they worked in Ford Explorers that went to Siberia. The mechanical capability to install it I think I lack, but it seems like a product I just can't go wrong. The late model EV's have a gas tank that is pressurized to around 1psi, so there is complication that I have to make sure that doesn't cause a problem with the pulse pump that the Espar heater uses (basically I'm told that I'll need to drill a hole in the gas tank).

BTW: VW did offer a gas heater in the EV for Europe. If I could get the actual VW part then I would do that route, but I don't speak German and finding information in a country that speak so many languages has been challenging.

The Webasto, called Airtop 2000, available through Reimo, which is an extensive catalog for class b applications.

Reimo - Alles für Reisemobile, Camping & Caravans. Online-Shop mit Camping-Artikeln, Zubehör und Wohnmobil-Ausstattung. Dächer, Möbel, Sitzbänke, Komplettfahrzeuge.

 

Quite possibly foolish, however I've been looking for an A/C unit that uses less than 500 watts even if it's only 2 or 3k BTU or even if it requires some custom work. I don't mind ridiculously expensive if the cost outweighs the alternative, and I agree the only sure way to make this work is going to be not only expensive but rely on a form of 110 volt (whether in the form of a generator or shorepower...landline isn't an option though), however I do believe I will be able to supplement the use of the generator when outside conditions are not demanding much in the form of cooling such as at night. I'd like to avoid the use of a generator as much as possible at night. There is no doubt that during daylight hours the generator would need to be the primary if not the sole source of electricity even for a 500 watt A/C unit.

I'm not sure what a freezer plate system means. Are you referring to the $80 window units with the "radiator" being the freezer plate. I'm not that familiar with the technical components.

I did buy one of these things several years ago when West Marine and other marine stores were selling them for nearly $1500. They stopped selling them because basically they work well only at night and are a pain because you have to put ice in a cooler. Daylight hours and the ice melts almost instantly, however at night it cooled the van quite well for 8 to 10 hours and it only used about 30 watts of power to do it. It's also quite small (granted the ice cooler took up some space). It really put out cold air, but the moment sunlight hit the vehicle the amount of heat it sucked out of the ice cubes was faster than pouring scolding hot water over ice...it melts that fast, so it was a night time solution and only if you wanted the hassle of buying 40 pounds of ice every night which you quickly learn that most places are frequently out of ice during Spring/Summer and at about $10 to $15 a night, this solution wasn't much of a solution which is why the marine stores stopped selling them. Now it worked great at night, I couldn't have been happier with the night solution, yet getting the ice was horrible. I could see this as an occasional solution for a boater or someone who has easy access to a large ice machine, but for the majority of people and especially those wanting a more full-time use application, it just was a band-aid solution.

Innova Tech, Inc. - Bay Air AC | 12V Cooling for Small Cruisers

I eventually gave it away as getting ice every night and running the engine during the day isn't a real solution.

Yes, the solutions are very expensive. I don't mind spending the money when I find whatever is going to be the best solution...however keep in mind a lot of the expense is for items that I need for other features in the "camper" so a sine wave inverter, generator, solar panels, batteries will serve other purposes as well.

 

That Celtic Woman concert is kinda like my A/C experience...I don't want my ICE running either. It's just not a perfect world, now is it?

The one big question I haven't yet solved is the best way to charge the battery bank. I'll likely start out with a small battery bank of 235 amps @ 12 volts using a AGM gel sealed battery rather than the much higher 410 amp @ 6 volts X 2 golf cart lead acid batteries. The current charging system that came with it from Winnebago is designed for the stock 120 amp hour lead acid battery. Now if this were a perfect world, I have a super fast recharging system that the Prius and all these hybrid vehicles have instead I am top heavy with high amps yet low volts so charging solutions are slow in comparison.

 

Right now I'm in the process of insulating the interior walls. The vehicles interior has been completely stripped out. The biggest problem with vehicles and cooling during the hotter months is the rate of heat transfer into the vehicle. It's like an attic that gets far hotter than the outside temp, so there are a number of things you can do to ensure your attic is cool using passive cooling techniques, namely ventilation and insulation, yet with a vehicle you don't have attic to serve as a radiant barrier/air gap to block radiation from the sun. The vehicle IS the attic. I've read a number of posts about people insulating their Prius especially the issue with the back window (I suspect the redesign prius may get rid of such an all glass design?)

Ventilation only works well if the outside temperature is desirable enough to use. During hot summer months, this results in circulation of hot air so ventilation is turned off and you can only rely on insulation (unless you came up with a fancy way to have a air gap between the metal wall of the vehicle and the insulation combined with a ventilation system to remove the thermal heat transfer between the metal body and insulation. I've thought of that and it makes my head spin.

Solar cells...and I'd like to of course make it as efficient as possible and it'd be more of a supplemental power source rather than a primary source for electricity. So it's somewhat of a moot topic at this point especially due to the fact that they don't work when skies are cloudy/evening, etc. The roof is fiberglass and the goal is to put solar panels on the roof, but the metal on a vehicle absorbs the thermal heat from the sun quite well. I'm not sure what is the best form of reducing the heat transfer of the sun.

I mention the sun, because it's basically the biggest obstacle. Keeping the heat from getting inside the vehicle in the first place and possibly using extremely hot/sunny days to my advantage with a solar panels on the flat fiberglass roof top.

 

Speaking of gas mileage...Personally, I wish the van was a diesel five speed...i think there's a six speed in europe, but VW didn't provide this option to the U.S. You can still buy the Eurovan in Mexico, the newer T5 version which according to the VW mexico website it gets 13.48 km/l which multiply that by 2.35214583 and this van has a Mexico mpg rating of 31.71mpg. They don't have city/hwy ratings there. I'm not sure what it gets in Europe, but that's far better than what I get. Now with the change in the EPA from 2007 to 2008 in mileage, and I'm sure Mexico has a strange way of calculating mileage, I wonder how much better gas mileage this van actually gets than my gasoline VR6 engine (which I get 17 city/19 hwy). From some UK forums it seems 30mpg is what people are getting and some modifications getting 35mpg and of course some claiming higher...that's probably the best mpg in a van and especially a relatively large and heavy van. The 2009 VW van for the U.S. will be on a Dodge Caravan chassis...sad but true. Pretty much every place has diesel options except the U.S. You can buy a diesel eurovan named "California", which is odd because it's available everywhere except the U.S. Volkswagen California

 

Anyway, back to the topic. There are coolers such as these that claim to lower the temperature down 20 to 30 degrees (yet only to be used with humidity below 75% which says a lot.)

TurboKool Advanced RV Evaporative Air Coolers