Berkely vs USMC

I'm headed off to class so I do not have the time to disect and answer you previous post in depth. You are right though, I will never understand the brotherhood you speak of but like any other "brotherhood" or connection through close association I can understand the psychology behind it. Everyone experiences similar feelings of comradarie through tight social ties, especially when faced with danger.

Thank you for admitting that instead of disputing it. I totally agree with your statement about camaraderie.

I thank you for your service both in the military and in public service. My original point is that military personel are paid to do their jobs and MANY men and women join the military for that simple reason. It is a job that pays well enough and does not require a degree. I know too many kids that decided on the military because they were tired of working at Burger King. I understand not all do this but there is a trend IMO.

You are very welcome, I will admit that some times my overwhelming pride does cloud my opinions. But in my own defense, I often feel it's justified.
Pay is a primary reason some many of our young men and women join the service these days. Others do it out of a feeling of obligation to their country. Their are many positions that require a degree in the Officer Ranks, many are in the Nuke field.

The other issue is generally one of employment. If you have more soldiers you will generally have more people who are interested in defense funding and increased war games because that increases their personal wealth. Many of my customers love being deployed because they recieve a fat bonus and they can come back and purchase a new supercharger or DVD stereo system. Rarely do you see someone fighting against whoever is supplying their paycheck.

An enlisted man will never become wealthy in a monetary aspect while serving his/her country. They will become wealthy in a sense of pride and self-accomplishment.
Yes, while deployed I enjoyed the little extras of Flight Deck and separation pay, the few extra dollars helped lessen the feelings of loneliness and dangers that accompany working on the flight deck.
Their aren't to many folks who fight the boss or the system they are employed by. The military has a way of weeding those types out. In the real world, you simply get fired.

 

Typical liberal - how rude, obnoxious, flawed, wrong, childish, etc of a comment have you now made. You insulted millions of Americans with and without degrees. So what, a college degree makes you what - smarter??? makes your opinion more worthy - how stuck up are you.

And, why dont you look at the % of US military people with degrees - my grandsons father has an MBA. What about the millions who got degrees BECAUSE OF THE ARMY ETC?

You think all our service people are ex-burger flippers? Disgusting. Now we understand your views a little bit better - obviously, I can because i have a degree too.

And military pay --- the most underpaid of all people in the US of A.

And now we know why you dont respect their opinions too.

You seem to be an elitist.

And how do you thank him and others for their service - are you just saying that - obviously you dont respect them - these burger flippers without degrees.

 

Gentlemen, I hold all the posters in this thread, except one, in high regard (please do not ask). Could we please agree to disagree and move on?

To the military folks (serving, veteran, and/or retired): please understand that you are the face of the military establishment. Our military organizations might have views that are different from ours but the truth is that we become military spokesmen whether we like it or not -- so please take care in what you say even if you state it is your own opinion. Unfortunately, the statement about something being your opinion gets lost when a reader pictures you in uniform. Also, the military's Title Ten responsibilities do not cover governance of our nation, screwing another country's women, or taking away civil liberties that some people and towns have abused. Please look it up if you are curious to see for yourself -- it is a convoluted system but represents democracy at work.

To the non-military: we are you. Just about every type of American is represented in the military; however, we operate under different rules while we wear the uniform or accept a retirement check so the similarities are sometimes forgotten. The service is not for everyone and there is nothing wrong with that. Not everyone in America could serve even if they wanted to. Also accept the fact that some good people serve and stay in the military because they want to affect the military from the inside. It is a wonderful thing that we are all so different and decide to effect change in many different ways.

Again, I hold every one of you in high esteem and would ask you to direct your talents back to more friendly threads.

Respectfully,
Jack66

 

Originally Posted by dbermanmd
Typical liberal - how rude, obnoxious, flawed, wrong, childish, etc of a comment have you now made. You insulted millions of Americans with and without degrees. So what, a college degree makes you what - smarter??? makes your opinion more worthy - how stuck up are you.

He's in titled to say what he wants. Was I insulted because he insinuated that I don't have a degree? No. In fact I have studied in Collage for years. But I haven't figured just what I want to pursue in terms of my degree. I've always valued common sense over a Collage Degree. Is he any smarter then any of us, perhaps he is. Doesn't make his opinions any more valuable.

And, why dont you look at the % of US military people with degrees - my grandsons father has an MBA. What about the millions who got degrees BECAUSE OF THE ARMY ETC?

Yes, there are quite a few military people with degrees. Yes, the military can be a great start who get out and want to strive for a degree. VEAP, and the New GI bill are great benefits offered to the service man/woman.

You think all our service people are ex-burger flippers? Disgusting. Now we understand your views a little bit better - obviously, I can because i have a degree too.

Nope, I have never flipped a burger in any fast food place. I was turning wrenches or working as an electrical apprentice before I joined up.

And military pay --- the most underpaid of all people in the US of A.

How very true! Most junior enlisted live below the poverty line. Throw in a few children and they are well below the poverty line.

And now we know why you dont respect their opinions too.
You seem to be an elitist.

I can't fairly judge his overall character from his posts.

And how do you thank him and others for their service - are you just saying that - obviously you dont respect them - these burger flippers without degrees.

Any time a Veteran is thanked, it's a good thing. He's thanking me for my service to my country.

 

X

 

Here, here! A nice post, with a civil tone. We need more like this.

Thanks,
Tom

 

Thanks for your civil post. I hold you in utmost regard. I'm guessing you are a 'lifer' and I thank you for your service, it means a lot to me.

 

I'll give you a big ole thanks, shipmate!
Ditto the beer and a meal if you get up into Yankee (not the dammed ball club!) Country. Blast me an PM if you head up this way!

 

Sparrowhawk,

I think we actually agree on many points. My main one is that the majority of military men/women I run into generally act a particular way I find offensive, especially in regard to environmentalists or hippys, or whatever term they chose to use. I have many points I was trying to make but I am doing a poor job of exlaining them so I'll just let it go. There is nothing gained by here by putting any of you down however unintentional.

I also realize that MANY of the scientific breakthroughs and observations, that are the basis for my own work, were due to work performed by the armed forces so to assume that none are educated and hold degrees is pretty ignorant but David likes to paint people into a black and white tapestry so I'll just ignore his antics.

I do thank you and others for your service from the bottom of my heart.

 

This is one of the most simplistic asinine rants yet.
So here we go.. Rule number 1

If you watch or read the REAL news or talking to people who have been to IRAQ, the coalition is working with the IRAQI government to fight those who don’t want peace in the country.

 

:second:

 

:flame::flame:

 

Still doesn't change the fact that Bush is Osama Bin Laden's #2 and McCain would be his #3, both are talking about spending the government into oblivion, just like the criminal Reagan, Republicans just want to spend and not accomplish a damn thing.

And what benefits would I desire from the military? I desire none, I'm glad they have all the benefits and more should be given, MY POINT was NOT THAT, my point was that Iraq is bleeding the country dry economically, and if you support it, why aren't you willing to pay for it? But I'm sure thats probably too complicated for you to comprehend.

The problem is pretty simple, Republicans want to help Osama Bin Laden reach his ultimate goal, they want to spend, but don't want to pay for it.

Whereas Democrats like to spend, but they like to spend domestically, and raise taxes to pay for it, so a few bones to American public get thrown in there spending.

Like it or not, those are true facts, and Iraq is nothing more than a cork right now, already getting ready to pop open, look at the rising US death toll and Basra right now.

 

Well mods, this thread is starting to look like it belongs in Fred's House of Politics. We are only one step away from name calling.

Tom

 

Tattle-tale!

 

Right after Reagan was inaugurated in January 1981 and the Iranian Hostage Conflict magically ended . . . we headed for Perth . . . so yeah, Feb '81 sounds right.

I was on the USS Independence [VAQ-131. EA-6B Prowlers ]

You were there????

So, I'm guessing you had never been to the resort island of Rottnest. Forgive me as my memory is a little fuzzy [beers drank and time will do that. ]
The bar I was referring to was at the Quokka Arms, and, I believe, was more or less reserved for the 'locals' who were on long term [days or weeks at a time] 'holiday.' I was invited by a group of older married couples to join them for some drinks, and NO, they didn't pay for our drinks every round. They settled-up with the bartender later. The bartender was on standing orders from these people that they would pay for all of my drinks, even if they weren't there! Yes, they were very friendly - but I didn't take advantage and drink them into the poor house.

I went out to Rottnest to try to get away from the hords of sailors. It worked . . . I only saw one other sailor on Rottnest, and thankfully Rottnest was a big enough place for the both of us. Except for that initial glance, I never saw him again . . . and I spent a majority of my time on Rottnest.

No, I wasn't trying to "get to you" . . . it wasn't my quote, but I didn't disavow it either. Actually, the girl I met and spent time with was Canadian . . . and I must say WoWWW she was georgeous! [This is where I could interject some MarinJohn-ism and say, 'I noticed you didn't mention my 'more salient point' about how American sailors treat Australian women with more respect than Australian men do.

As for you not believing me regarding the actions of the dads at fleet landing: Your rational is that you are a dad, therefor it didn't/couldn't have happened? Were you there at fleet landing in Fremantle in 1981? I WAS.

Admittedly you are not from Western Australia. Just like in the USA, there is an East Coast mentality and a West Coast mentality in Australia. In both cases it is the West with the more laid back mentality and lifestyle.

 

Small world, Dam man, we're SHIPMATES! Yup, I was there along side you! (19 Nov 80 - 10 Jun 81 Indy's last cruise with the F-4's and F-8's!)
Ships CO was Capt. Shanahan! Your CO was CDR Creager, your XO CDR Simms.
I met Sims, good guy.
I was an ABH with the ship's company from Mar 80 to Oct 83. I worked in Pri-Fly (the Tower) and knew your tower rep, LTJG Newton or "Newt" as they called him. One funny SOB!
So I guess you are a "Trusty Shellback" as well?
Perth, was one heck of a liberty port. Friendly people, couldn't buy a drink! Got some nice sheepskin stuff there.

PM me if you'd like, I'll look you up in the Cruise Book.
I also have a spare copy of that cruise book, if you are in need of one.

Why don't you join myself and our other shipmates at these sites where we can be a bit more sailor like:
A yahoo group for the ship:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ussindependencecva62-1/

A great web site to look up old shipmates, the Indy's only real and up to day site!:
http://www.ussindependencecv-62.org/gwf/indy-cv62-i.html#bnnr5898

"Your" page there:
VAQ-131 Lancers CVW-6 CV62

 

You are quite welcome, I am very proud to call myself a U.S. Navy Veteran.

As quoted below, I do at times have a very different view of the world around us. While I don't claim and never will claim to be a spokesman for the Military or the Navy, I will voice my opinion, my background having a large part in what I say. The realities of life come quick and hard while serving this country. One thing that has been ingrained in my mind, is what can be the life and death struggle of simple day to day activities on board a ship. Not that it's an everyday occurrence, but it does happen.
A shipmate you are playing cards with one night, can suddenly and without any reason be gone the next moment. Fire is always in the back of every sailors mind, not something I want to deal with in my life these days. Yeah, some of us did tend to get a bit wild and crazy when set upon the masses in a liberty port. I akin that to being young.
Much the same to the life style F8L has posted with his 'Playboy' inferences...

"To the military folks (serving, veteran, and/or retired): please understand that you are the face of the military establishment. Our military organizations might have views that are different from ours but the truth is that we become military spokesmen whether we like it or not -- so please take care in what you say even if you state it is your own opinion. Unfortunately, the statement about something being your opinion gets lost when a reader pictures you in uniform. Also, the military's Title Ten responsibilities do not cover governance of our nation, screwing another country's women, or taking away civil liberties that some people and towns have abused. Please look it up if you are curious to see for yourself -- it is a convoluted system but represents democracy at work."


For those who might want to guess???
Title 10?? Didn't become effective till the mid 90's in which case, I was not governed by it and as a Veteran I am still not bound by it.

TITLE 10 - ARMED FORCES
Subtitle A - General Military Law
PART II - PERSONNEL
CHAPTER 37 - GENERAL SERVICE REQUIREMENTS


PUBLIC LAW 103-160, SECTION 654, TITLE 10
The homosexual exclusion law passed by both houses of Congress in 1993 with veto-proof, bi-partisan majorities.
Here's a code I remember: 1. Code of the U.S. Fighting Force a. As a member of the armed forces of the United States, you are protecting your nation. It is your duty to oppose all enemies of the United States in combat or, if a captive, in a prisoner of war compound. Your behavior is guided by the Code of Conduct, which has evolved from the heroic lives, experiences and deeds of Americans from the Revolutionary War to the Southeast Asian Conflict. b. Your obligations as a U.S. citizen and a member of the armed forces result from the traditional values that underlie the American experience as a nation. These values are best expressed in the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights, which you have sworn to uphold and defend. You would have these obligations—our country, your service and unit and your fellow Americans—even if the Code of Conduct had never been formulated as a high standard of general behavior. c. Just as you have a responsibility to your country under the Code of Conduct, the United States government has an equal responsibility—to keep faith with you and stand by you as you fight for your country. If you are unfortunate enough to become a prisoner of war, you may rest assured that your government will care for your dependents and will never forget you. Furthermore, the government will use every practical means to contact, support and gain release for you and for all other prisoners of war. d. To live up to the code, you must know not only its words but the ideas and principles behind those words. e. This pamphlet contains the code, an explanation of its principles and a statement of the standards expected of you. f. The Code of Conduct is an ethical guide. Its six articles deal with your chief concerns as an American in combat; these concerns become critical when you must evade capture, resist while a prisoner or escape from the enemy. g. Experiences of captured Americans reveal that to survive captivity honorably would demand from you great courage, deep dedication and high motivation. To sustain these personal values throughout captivity requires that you understand and believe strongly in our free and democratic institutions, love your country, trust in the justice of our cause, keep faithful and loyal to your fellow prisoners and hold firmly to your religious and moral beliefs in time of trial. h. Your courage, dedication and motivation supported by understanding, trust and fidelity will help you endure the terrors of captivity, prevail over your captors and return to your family, home and nation with honor and pride. i. The Code of Conduct for members of the Armed Forces of the United States was first promulgated by President Dwight D. Eisenhower Aug. 17, 1955. The code, including its basic philosophy, was reaffirmed on July 8, 1964, in DOD Directive No. 1300.7. In March 1988, President Ronald Reagan issued Executive Order 12633, amending the code with language that is gender–neutral, The code, although first expressed in written form in 1955, is based on time–honored concepts and traditions that date back to the days of the American Revolution. 2. Code of Conduct I a. I am an American fighting in the forces which guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense. b. All men and women in the armed forces have the duty at all times and under all circumstances to oppose the enemies of the United States and support its national interests. In training or in combat, alone or with others, while evading capture or enduring captivity, this duty belongs to each American defending our nation regardless of circumstances. 3. Code of Conduct II a. I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command, I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist. b. As an individual, a member of the armed forces may never voluntarily surrender. When isolated and no longer able to inflict casualties on the enemy, the American soldier has an obligation to evade capture and rejoin friendly forces. c. Only when evasion by an individual is impossible and further fighting would lead only to death with no significant loss to the enemy should one consider surrender. With all reasonable means of resistance exhausted and with certain death the only alternative, capture does not imply dishonor. d. The responsibility and authority of a commander never extends to the surrender of a command to the enemy while the command has the power to fight and evade. When isolated, cut off or surrounded, a unit must continue to fight until relieved or able to rejoin friendly forces through continued efforts to break out or evade the enemy. 4. Code of Conduct III a. If I am captured I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy. b. The duty of a member of the armed forces to use all means available to resist the enemy is not lessened by the misfortune of captivity. A POW is still legally bound by the Uniform Code of Military Justice and ethically guided by the Code of Conduct. Under provisions of the Geneva Convention, a prisoner of war is also subject to certain rules imposed by the captor nation. When repatriated, a prisoner of war will not be condemned for having obeyed reasonable captor rules, such as sanitation regulations. The duty of a member of the armed forces to continue to resist does not mean a prisoner should engage in unreasonable harassment as a form of resistance, retaliation by captors to the detriment of that prisoner and other prisoners is frequently the primary result of such harassment. c. The Geneva Convention recognizes that a POW may have the duty to attempt escape. In fact, the Geneva Convention prohibits a captor nation from executing a POW simply for attempting escape. Under the authority of the senior official (often called the senior ranking officer, or SRO), a POW must be prepared to escape whenever the opportunity presents itself. In a POW compound, the senior POW must consider the welfare of those remaining behind after an escape. However, as a matter of conscious determination, a POW must plan to escape, try to escape and assist others to escape. d. Contrary to the spirit of the Geneva Convention, enemies engaged by U.S. forces since 1950 have regarded the POW compound as an extension of the battlefield. In doing so, they have used a variety of tactics and pressures, including physical and mental mistreatment, torture and medical neglect, to exploit POWs for propaganda purposes, to obtain military information or to undermine POW organization, communication and resistance. e. Such enemies have attempted to lure American POWs into accepting special favors or privileges in exchange for statements, acts or information. Unless it is essential to the life or welfare of that person or another prisoner of war or to the success of efforts to resist or escape, a POW must neither seek nor accept special favors or privileges. f. One such privilege is called parole. Parole is a promise by a prisoner of war to a captor to fulfill certain conditions such as agreeing not to escape nor to fight again once released—in return for such favors as relief from physical bondage, improved food and living conditions or repatriation ahead of the sick, injured or longer–held prisoners. An American POW will never sign nor otherwise accept parole. 5. Code of Conduct IV. a. If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information or take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way. b. Informing or any other action to the detriment of a fellow prisoner is despicable and is expressly forbidden. Prisoners of war must avoid helping the enemy identify fellow prisoners who may have knowledge of particular value to the enemy and who may, therefore, be made to suffer coercive interrogation. c. Strong leadership and communication are essential to discipline. Discipline is the key to camp organization, resistance and even survival. Personal hygiene, camp sanitation and care of sick and wounded are imperative. Officers and non-commissioned officers of the United States must continue to carry out their responsibilities and exercise their authority in captivity. The senior, regardless of service, must accept command. This responsibility and accountability may not be evaded. d. If the senior is incapacitated or is otherwise unable to act, the next senior person will assume command. Camp leaders should make every effort to inform all POWs of the chain of command and try to represent them in dealing with enemy authorities. The responsibility of subordinates to obey the lawful orders of ranking American military personnel remains unchanged in captivity. e. The Geneva Convention Relative to Treatment of Prisoners of War provides for election of a "prisoners' representative" in POW camps containing enlisted personnel but no commissioned officers. American POWs should understand that such a representative is only a spokesman for the actual senior ranking person. Should the enemy appoint a POW chain of command for its own purposes, American POWs should make all efforts to adhere to the principles of Article IV. f. As with other provisions of this code, common sense and the conditions of captivity will affect the way in which the senior person and the other POWs organize to carry out their responsibilities. What is important is that everyone support and work within the POW organization. 6. Code of Conduct V. a. When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause. b. When questioned, a prisoner of war is required by the Geneva Convention and this code to give name, rank, service number (Social Security number) and date of birth. The prisoner should make every effort to avoid giving the captor any additional information. The prisoner may communicate with captors on matters of health and welfare and additionally may write letters home and fill out a Geneva Convention "capture card." c. It is a violation of the Geneva Convention to place a prisoner under physical or mental duress, torture or any other form of coercion in an effort to secure information. If under such intense coercion, a POW discloses unauthorized information, makes an unauthorized statement or performs an unauthorized act, that prisoner's peace of mind and survival require a quick recovery of courage, dedication and motivation to resist anew each subsequent coercion. d. Actions every POW should resist include making oral or written confessions and apologies, answering questionnaires, providing personal histories, creating propaganda recordings, broadcasting appeals to other prisoners of war, providing any other material readily usable for propaganda purposes, appealing for surrender or parole, furnishing self-criticisms and communicating on behalf of the enemy to the detriment of the United States, its allies, its armed forces or other POWs. e. Every POW should also recognize that any confession signed or any statement made may be used by the enemy as a false evidence that the person is a "war criminal" rather than a POW. Several countries have made reservations to the Geneva Convention in which they assert that a "war criminal" conviction deprives the convicted individual of prisoner-of-war status, removes that person from protection under the Geneva Convention and revokes all rights to repatriation until a prison sentence is served. f. Recent experiences of American prisoners of war have proved that, although enemy interrogation sessions may be harsh and cruel, one can resist brutal mistreatment when the will to resist remains intact. g. The best way for a prisoner to keep faith with country, fellow prisoners and self is to provide the enemy with as little information as possible. 7. Code of Conduct VI a. I will never forget that I am an American, fighting for freedom, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America. b. A member of the armed forces remains responsible for personal actions at all times. c. A member of the armed forces who is captured has a continuing obligation to resist and to remain loyal to country, service, unit and fellow prisoners. d. Upon repatriation, POWs can expect their actions to be reviewed, both as to circumstances of capture and conduct during detention. The purpose of such review is to recognize meritorious performance as well as to investigate possible misconduct. Each review will be conducted with due regard for the rights of the individual and consideration for the conditions of captivity; captivity of itself is not a condition of culpability. e. Members of the armed forces should remember that they and their dependents will be taken care of by the appropriate service and that pay and allowances, eligibility and procedures for promotion and benefits for dependents continue while the service member is detained. Service members should assure that their personal affairs and family matters (such as pay, powers of attorney, current will and provisions for family maintenance and education) are properly and currently arranged. Failure to so arrange matters can create a serious sense of guilt for a POW and place unnecessary hardship on family members. f. The life of a prisoner of war is hard. Each person in this stressful situation must always sustain hope and resist enemy indoctrination. Prisoners of war standing firm and united against the enemy will support and inspire one another in surviving their ordeal and in prevailing over misfortune with honor.

 

Title 10 of the United States Code - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Title 10 of the U.S. Code was effective before you and I were born. It stems from the Constitution and outlines what the military's responsibilities are and who holds the purse strings. It also gets into things like the maximum number of division the Army can have or ships the Navy can have. It gets more interesting when you deal with the National Guard -- if the state deploys them then they operate under Title 32 rules and can help the police. If they deploy under Title Ten because the Pesident calls them up then they are operating under Title 10 and cannot help the police because of Posse Commitatus.

Just so you know, if you ever signed a contract to be in the military then you can be recalled at any time by Congress and the President. It isn't used very often but it was used for Desert Storm and OIF for certain specialties that the military was short.

Also, many retired military do not understand that they are subject to the Uniformed Code of Military Justice as long as they accept a retirement check. There was an E-9 that retired to Saudi Arabia as a contractor and murdered his wife while there. The Saudis would not extradite him because he did nothing illegal under their legal system. He was getting a retirement check so the Army put him back on active duty, he refused to report for duty, and the Saudis sent him packing to the States because he had finally done something that they recognize as wrong. He was court-martialed and sent to Leavenworth.