Stay away from GM in its death spiral

I knew you would come and fill that hole for me Eric, thanks mate.
I believe more Fosters is brewed in England than Australia.

 

Not me. One of the major reasons I bought a hybrid that was as technically complex as a Prius was Toyota's reputation for quality control.

Although they've vastly improved their engineering over the hoary old days of stuff like the Cadillac V4-6-8, buying something as complex as a real integrated hybrid system (or full EV, for that matter) that substantially improves gas mileage from GM (and not the lame electric 'assist' systems they're trying to pawn off as hybrids now) would take an enormous leap of faith (for me, anyway), particularly in the first year or two.

But then, I don't drive a ZAP Xebra, either...:blink:

 

yes, they do.
couple of years ago i rented Opel Astra, and yes what a nice little car.

I drove it some 4000 miles through various EU countries. It had AC, power windows and 5 speed manual trans coupled to a 1.3 liter fuel injected engine.
that car had lost of power for its tiny ICE, and it probably compares with 2 liter engines in U.S. market cars of similar size.
just like U.S. cars -- it used unleaded fuel.

it was around 12,000 euros, which was not bad at all as $ was doing ok.

 

+1

Furthermore if a company previously has claimed that hybrids are not "economically viable" then changes course and says that they are coming to market with a new series hybrid "if we can get the battery breakthrough that we need", they do not cause me to think warm fuzzy thoughts regarding the depth and thoroughness of product testing and validation.

Just sayin.

 

Serise hybrids are alot simpler than the HSD, and have been around for decades.

All I've heard about the EV1 leads me to believe that GM made something well. Of course they need to have the will to do so again.

 

Owning a Xebra gives you a whole new perspective on quality. Zap makes Fords look reliable. :frusty: After my Xebra, a GM would be an improvement, as long as it was electric.

Exactly!

I want a "real" electric car, and I will buy one from whoever will sell me one first, as long as I can test-drive it first, and as long as it meets my minimum requirements: for a pure EV that's 75 miles at freeway speed; for a PHEV that's 30 miles at normal-car acceleration and speed before the engine starts, though I'd pay a significant premium (i.e. upgraded optional battery) to get 50 miles.

 

From what I've read, Xebras sound so bad that they make a Yugo look reliable.

If I had the kind of perseverance and commitment to put up with a ZAP Xebra, I'd probably jump at the chance to get a Volt, too.

Of course, there might be some other major manufacturers beating GM to the marketplace with a full EV, like Mitubishi and Nissan, just to name two.

 

Checked out Consumer Reports' reliability rating on this "well engineered" car lately? Big black dot = "much worse than average".

 

The Xebra's build quality is poor, but the car is not "bad." See, it all depends on what you want. I want to drive electric. Prius owners brag about how wonderful the Prius is for the environment because it gets 45 mpg instead of 30 mpg, but it still burns gas. The Prius is a luxurious $20K to $30K (depending on options) car that is very comfortable. But the Xebra gets me where I want to go 27 days out of 30 and it consumes no fossil fuel. Zero carbon. zero emissions! And that's what I want. The Prius is SULEV, but the Xebra is ZEV. You want a car that will never, ever break down, is extremely comfortable to drive or ride in, and burns 60% as much gas as the next-best choice. I'm willing to deal with the occasional repair and be a little less comfortable in order to get where I want to go on zero carbon. The Prius is a great car. It's the best gasoline car there is right now. But when I drive it I know that I am burning gas: sending money to terrorists, hurting our balance of trade, consuming a valuable non-renewable resource, and spewing carbon (and small amounts of other pollutants) into the atmosphere.

The first time my Prius went into electric mode, I knew that what I really wanted was an EV. I installed the Coastal Tech EV switch, and that was great, but it only gave me a few minutes on electric power, and the energy still came from gas.

I've had to make several repairs. That's true. But that's a sacrifice I'm willing to make, in order to drive electric. Because today, the Xebra is the only car you can buy new outside of CA that does what it does. (The $70,000 eBox is only available in CA. They've apparently made one or two exceptions, but they're really not interested in selling outside CA. And there's a VERY long waiting list to get a Tesla. And the Gem and Zenn are NEVs. And your only other choice is to convert your own in your back yard.

So, no, the Xebra is not a "bad" car. Its build quality is poor, and its range and speed limit its usefulness, but I'll tell you, even when my Prius was new it was not half as much fun to drive as my little three-legged clown car.

 

The problem isn't that the Xebra is really 'bad', per se, or a fun, little, three-legged clown car. The problem is that it's pretty damn pricey for what is essentially an electric golf cart with a makeshift enclosed car body on top of it. If ZAP priced it more realistically (it's worth about half of what they're asking for it), the Xebra would make a lot more sense. ZAP would sell a lot more of them, and make more money to actually develop and produce their lofty 'vaporware' electric vehicles, too.

 

I want a Tesla that's not a sports car.

I want a Prius that's a Tesla.

If I could have a Prius that had the specs of a Tesla (220 mile range, 3 hour charge, etc) that would be my dream car.

 

What you are describing is what Tesla plans for its third car model. Being a small start-up company, they don't have the capital for a family-priced car yet. The Roadster will fund development of a sporty sedan, which will fund the development of a family sedan. At least, that's their plan.

With a 220-mile range you don't need a 3-hour charge time. You're never likely to need to drive 220 miles 3 hours after you just drove 220 miles. With that kind of range, overnight charging (8 hours) is fine. And you don't even need to charge that fast if you're not going to drive 220 miles two days in a row.

A ten-minute or fifteen-minute charge would enable long-distance EV driving, but only when fast-charging stations are situated all along the highway. And those will require an investment not likely to happen in the lifetime of your generation and mine.

 

You know, a 220 mile range is way better than my motorbike which has a 120 mile range at 70mph so a 220 mile range with a 15 minute quick charge while I have a coffee and a leg stretch, I could handle that on a trip. I rode my bike on a 3000 mile trip last year, this year it will be over 4000 miles over 2 weeks with a 1 week party in there too.

 

Where did this 220 come from, anyway? The validation prototype of the Tesla Roadster went 245 miles on the EPA combined city/highway route. It went farther under gentle driving, and less under aggressive driving, of course.

 

That could have been me. I thought I either read it or maybe heard it on the Leno thing. Or maybe just misremembered the numbers.

Whatever they are, I want a car that has the range, etc of the Tesla but is a Prius.

 

I'm guessing you mean functional like the Prius, 4 doors and a hatch like the Prius or do you also want an ICE?

 

I would like to see something like the Toyota Matrix as an EV or PHEV. 5 door body style, Corolla sized, super high FE.

 

Functional 4 door with hatch. But an EV with the specs of a Tesla (or better.)

 

Really? You feel the need to get from 0 to 60 in 4 seconds, and have a top speed of 120 or 130 mph? Not me. I think the Prius does 0 to 60 in between 10 and 11 seconds. (?) An EV that did it in 7 or 8 seconds would be powerful enough for me. And 100 miles of range is plenty for me, though I'll still need a gas car or PHEV for longer trips in summer.

But I'll agree with you that the Prius size and body style is ideal. That was one of the reasons I bought my 2004 Prius. I never bought a 2001-3 Prius because I didn't want to give up the convenience of my Civic station wagon.

Take the Prius body, and make it a 100-mile EV or a PHEV-60 and you'll have my ideal car. Have it made by Toyota in Japan, for reliability and safety, and I'll pay $50,000 for it without batting an eye.

But you're not going to see an EV with the specs of a Tesla at a price you'd want to pay. The Tesla Roadster is for someone who wants a Ferrari, but a Ferrari is not powerful enough for them.