Toyota About to Ruin My Community

Your city is finally doing some proper planning. Separating land into residential, industrial, and commercial zones while typical in the US is horrible city planning. It requires residents to drive everywhere. You have to drive to your job, drive to drop the kids off at school, drive to go shopping, etc.

If you combine these zones you allow people to walk places and greatly improve quality of life.

 

Sorry, and no offense meant. But Castle Rock is not some pristine small town place. It defines suburban sprawl and encourages a completely non-sustainable lifestyle.

Based on that news story, this is classic NIMBY.

Anyone in the horrible suburban sprawl that Castle Rock represents talking about smart growth is laughable.

The irony in some of those interviews is so deep as to render the entire story laughable.

Again, no offense meant Boulder Bum.

 

I just watched the video too. Boulder Bum you almost had me convinced your town was some quaint little town centered around a history downtown like you find in New England. After looking at the video I can see that it is what I call an "off-ramp" community. You go a couple of exits away from a major city and get off the highway. Build track housing in sterile clusters with lots of cul-de-sacs so that residents won't have to worry about car driving through past their house. All the shopping and restaurants are clustered around the exit and the main roads leading to the subdivisions.

I also looked on Google Maps. Sorry, there is no way that Castle Rock has anything special. Just another big city exurb.

 

And besides... look at all them purdy colors you can now look at in the lot as you drive by.... :amen::sorry::sorry::sorry::banplease::deadhorse: :violin:

 

Sorry Boulder Bum,

I have repeatedly stated that I mean no offense to you personally. I am surprised you result to name calling.

In regards to your points. Your pictures prove absolutely nothing. I'll tell you why. The open space you mention, along the I-25 corridor BTW, is so small as to be laughable. There is literally no difference between where "Lone Tree" starts and Castle Rock begins. I could take pictures of the landscaping next to the "Welcome to Lone Tree" sign up close if I wanted to show biodiversity. You can claim that these is one stretch along Castle Pines somewhere, where there isn't an expanse of track homes scarring the country side, but that hardly proves me or anyone else wrong. And yes, downtown is "Victorian", however 99% of Castle Rock has been built in the last 15 years and is made up of crappy overpriced stick built sub-divisions. There is absolutely no way you can demonstrate how that model of growth is either aesthetically pleasing or environmentally sustainable. You may like where you live, but please, don't represent a bedroom community of 50,000 people 15 minutes from Denver as somehow secluded or small. It gives the impression that some big bad business is coming in to destroy a small town. Hardly the case.

Besides, using Castle Rock planning as a model, why is it wrong to have a dealership near a High School, a park or residences? By localizing business, you don't have to drive. I myself have my oil changed at the deal 6 blocks from my house. Easy as pie.

As for the last part about Castle Rock being wealthy. It used to be the case that it was a primarily a middle class area. However, with the development of the area around Castle Pines and the subdividing of many of the horse farms and other large ranches to the west towards Sedalia, it has become one of the most affluent and ugly places on the front range. Miles after miles of McMansions scarring what was a nice area back 20 years ago.

I apologize if my characterization of you community bothers you, but I can't help that. Castle Rock is a bedroom community of Denver with virtually no industry of it's own (unless you count the school district, outlet malls, or highway department). Have no shame for loving your community, but lets not pretend it is anything more than what it is.

Also, while you may think you have reasonable resentments about this BUSINESS coming in, is still is the very definition of NIMBY.

Lastly, I suggest you do a google search on sustainable growth and increased urban density and it's effect on global warming among other environmental concerns. You may understand a little more about what I am talking about.

Again, I am not trying to argue, flame or start a battle. Just bring a little different perspective to people. I hope that we can avoid any future name calling.

 

I totally agree with this.

A few years back when I was condo shopping, I looked at a place that was within walking distance of several car dealers, a storage warehouse and a home depot. It took about 2 minutes for me to decide I didn't want to live there.

Now I live within walking distance of restaurants, small shops like a book store and a wine shop, a post office, a health club, a large library and two theaters (one for movies and one for plays). I was thrilled when they opened a grocery store a few months back. It costs more to live here but it's worth it.

 

I live in an older, completely built up and out section of Pittsburgh, where one of our main streets had a dealership, next to a drug store and a deli and doctors' offices, etc. The dealership went under about 20 years ago, but the neighboring community (also older and a 15 minute walk from my house) has a dealership right in the middle of their primary business district. The dealership sits across from a lighting store, a small deli, a coffee shop and it's next door neighbor is a local restaurant. Another dealership about 1 mile away sits next to the bike shop I frequent.

This is an area where you might walk, stroll or otherwise drive to to have a meal or replace your light fixture.

What's the difference between the scenario I describe and yours? The communities I live in/near are old-fashioned, traditional walking communities with a mix of residential and commercial properties. As JHinton pointed out, Castle Rock (and sorry, folks, but virtually all of the Denver and Colorado Springs metro areas. I visit there frequently.) are "off-ramp" communities and sprawling exurbs. BUT, perhaps mixing in some commercial development might spawn a new mix of development that allows folks to, perhaps, walk to a store for milk or pizza or a haircut, as opposed to lengthy driving from an isolated cul-de-sac past other isolated cul-de-sacs to get to the big strip mall (full of big box, national stores) or warehouse club.

Definitely be involved in voicing your vision for how your community should develop, but be open to the idea that commercial development may actually make your community more livable.

Everyone wants to get in and close the door behind them, but that's not reasonable.
:humble:

 

Tandblov, you may wish to choose your words more carefully. You can't just crap on his town and then say "No offense" to make it ok. I can't just say, "You're an idiot. No offense."

He doesn't want a dealership there and I can't blame him. He has the legal right to challenge the zoning through normal procedures.

You obviously have your agenda and Boulder Bum disagrees with it. You might do a better job of getting people to see your point of view if you weren't so aggressive with it.

 

The entire front range, from Pueblo to Cheyenne has become a poster child for terrible urban growth. Increasing commutes, drive times, congestion, and residential neighborhoods and business districts being so far apart as to make the car culture totally necessary. The fact that there are business districts, on the outskirts of town, is part of the problem. The business's that everyone uses should be IN TOWN, within walking distance. Grocery Stores, Hardware stores, electronics, clothes, and yes Car Dealerships, etc... If your in town "Business district" consists of antique stores and quaint ice cream parlors, it doesn't cut the mustard when it comes to smart urban growth.

This type of ill thought development is what is damaging our climate.

Of course, everyone has their own self interest in mind and as a result we will likely continue to have ever increasing sprawl, and increased emissions. No amount of hybrids will ever make up for this problem.

With all due respect, despite your photos, those of us who are familiar with the area know that you can make no distinctions when it comes to city limits along the front range any longer. I don't understand why this is cause of concern to you. Castle Rock is now a part of Denver and the larger front range megalopolis. Saying that these are different towns is like saying that Littleton is totally different from Denver because it has it's own city council. City Limits mean nothing when cities buttress up against one another. The architecture is the same, the stores are the same. The landscape is the same. Sweeping subdivisions and tract homes from Wellington to the south end of the Springs. Castle Rock has become another appropriated suburb of Denver where people are forced into their cars to go and shop at big box stores and chain restaurants. It is unfortunate, but true.

I am not sure what the photos of the huge houses in Castle Pines have to do with anything. They prove my argument.

Of course you have the right to protest development of your area. I wouldn't suggest otherwise. I too am free to respectfully disagree with it.

Locating useful business's in local areas is how you help combat global warming as well as congestion.

We moved from Colorado because of this insane growth. Now we live in a place that I can get my oil changed, buy a refrigerator, get my groceries, see a movie, take my kids to the park and school, eat at 2 dozen restaurants, go to 3 museums, all within a 20 minute walk. Or I can choose to ride a bus. Now, my hybrid gets out of the garage 3 times a week and we don't need a second car.

Of course, not everyone is so fortunate, but I say this simply to point out that there are ways of structuring the cities in which we live to make them more sustainable and pleasant to live. I think we need to start to think much differently about our communities and how they are built if we are ever going to do anything to change how we impact our climate.

I just hope that people would get as motivated about getting useful mass transit along the I-25 corridor and increasing urban density as they do these issues.

 

Also, I never called the residents "laughable".

I said that the "Irony" in the interviews rendered the story (the one you linked) laughable.

If you thought I was insulting you personally, then my apologies. That was not what I was doing.

 

When the property in question went on the market where were the "non-developers"? In cases like this it seems to me that people only start caring after the sale.

In NJ we have done a good job of paving over every bit of open space. Along US 130 one would be hard pressed to tell the difference between Pennsauken, Merchantville, Cinnaminson, Delran, Willingboro, and Edgewater Park. These are the townships between Camden & Burlington populated by strip malls, shopping centers, and stores along the highway & tract housing just off it. If the street signs didn't change you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

Cherry Hill Toyota was built on Haddonfield Road in a residential neighborhood. They probably don't get much walk in business but their employees would be able to walk to work if the lived in the development behind the lot

In the 40's & 50's car dealerships were "downtown" like every other business and they were smaller and everywhere. Now we want huge dealers at the foot of the Interstate's ramp.

 

Local codes and zoning laws are how you manage this type of growth. If you don't already have building codes and zoning laws in place preventing a business, such as a car dealership, from locating in a residential area, then there is nothing you can do. The owner had every right to sell their land to whoever was willing to pay the price they demanded. And the buyer has every right to build whatever the law permits.

Trying to prevent this after the fact is going to be pretty impossible without the law behind you. If it's zoned residential, then your town can deny the dealership all permits and can cite and fine them for violations. If it's not, then you're stuck with it. The only thing you can really do as a community is to organize yourselves to see that the dealership doesn't have enough customers to stay solvent so they fold and move away. Of course, they'll leave behind an asphalt paved lot and some business buildings that will not attract the kind of buyer you'll want replacing the Toyota dealership, I.E. probably a used car lot.

 

boulder bum

I spent 42 years as a planner dealing with matters like this. If this proposal fits the City Comprehensive Plan, the real time to deal with the issue was when the public hearings on Plan were held. Perhaps you lived elsewhere then.

But there is another point that you should consider. If this dealership is constructed with taste, it will not be nearly the problem that you imagine. If you are not successful preventing it, you might be successful getting conditions applied to it which make it more desirable. That has the benefit of setting a precedent for other businesses which may follow, as well.

An Internet search on "Industrial Park" or "Business Park" or "Automobile Park" will bring up examples which might be helpful.

Best of luck!

Allan

 

You cannot fight for what is right if the opposition has the law on their side. If there is a zoning "loophole", then it's too late. I've been there and done that. It the loophole allows the dealership to do exactly that, then there's no stopping it. If the dealership can't be reasoned with, the residents can always file a civil suit to sue for lower property values. But that would be very hard to prove, given the current real estate market. You'd be hard pressed to prove it was the dealership that was the sole contributor to lowered property values.

It is a lot easier to prevent something like this from happening with good zoning laws and code enforcement, than to try to fix it after the fact. Again, been there, done that.