GM hybrids get off to a slow start in first quarter

I personally think they priced them out of the market. Perhaps they need to have a entry level one that's a bit cheaper rather than a fully loaded one with the expense of the hybrid system putting it through the roof? For the starting price of a 4x4 Tahoe Hybrid you can get an Cadillac Escalade.

Most cars in my neck of the woods are pretty well loaded. People splurge and get all the options. With the Prius, even being a relatively inexpensive car I see much more package 2-4 than package 6. I think this shows that there's a slightly different breed when it comes to hybrid buyers. Perhaps they're a bit more go than show.

I believe the Tahoe buyer will pay up to 45-48k for a Tahoe. They need to make the hybrid start out at this range. Once you get over the 50k mark you've lost the vehicle demographic to the Denali/Cadilac dealerships. People that spend this much for cars care more about image than fuel economy. Sad to say, I've been among this group. I still am in some ways... but for the most part my expensive vehicles sit while I drive my Prius 97% of the time.

Mike

 

After I posted this I went to their website and that confirmed my initial thought. When you go to build it it's a fully loaded vehicle with leather trim. They're marketing the hybrid system as a "premium" option. Almost as a super-premium option. I truly believe in order to sell these they need to take the very base Tahoe with the entry level seating, entry level wheel/tire package, entry level stereo system, etc and offer a hybrid version on top of it. In addition they're selling their large V8 with this vehicle. At a minimum they need to offer the 5.3L, if not a smaller engine. I believe then they'll sell a few more of these.

They need to take a lesson from Honda. The car magazines thought the Honda Accord was great because the hybrid system made the car super fast. In the long run though the hybrid buyer wanted fuel economy over 0-60 times. If they sold a less "premium" Accord Hybrid I think you'd actually see some of them on the road.

Mike

 

The big-talkers on the GM forum have grown silent, a dramatic change from what we had to endure last year.

All the taunting about their system being "better" than Toyota's is revealing the shortcoming that engineering alone is not the only factor at play when it comes to hybrids.

The excuse about being patient makes no sense when in comes to BAS. I spotted my first back in March 2007 and the second model has been available since at least July 2007. How long do they think it takes?

.

 

I wonder how long the 'payback period' is?
Bahhh haaaaaaaaa!!!!! Turnaround is fair play.

Will the vehicles even last that long????

 

Is a Hybrid Tahoe is more environmentally damaging than a Hummer over its full lifetime?

 

The first Highlander Hybrids on lots were Limits loaded to the gills.

Gm and Toyota could have sold more at first by offering an entry level hybrid right away, but this allows them to maximize profits from the buyers with 'gottohaveitnow'-itis. It also helps them absorb the hybrid cost into the luxury costs.

Besides, those sensible enough to want only a base trim hybrid are likely willing to wait for the second model year to let any problems come to light, even with a base trim available.

 

My only shock is that the general public seems to realize how poor GMs hybrids are. A few quotes from Edmund's review:

So, if I get this right they've created a car thats slower and smaller than a Prius, costs almost as much as the Camry Hybrid, with the MPGs of an Accord Hybrid and emissions ratings of a full sized pickup. Weird, I can't imagine why they aren't selling. :noidea:

Malibu/Aura Hybrid:
0-60: 11s
Pass Vol: 95 cuft
Lug Vol: 16 cuft
MPG: 24/32, 27 Comb
Emissions: BIN5 (score 6)
Base MSRP: $24,290

Camry Hybrid:
0-60: 8.4s
Pass Vol: 101 cuft
Lug Vol: 11 cuft
MPG: 33/34, 34 Comb
Emissions: BIN3/SULEVII (score 8/9.5)
Base MSRP: $25,350

Accord Hybrid:
0-60: 6.7s
Pass Vol: 103 cuft
Lug Vol: 11 cuft
MPG: 24/32, 27 Comb
Emissions: BIN2/SULEVII (score 9/9.5)
Base MSRP: $31,090

Prius:
0-60: 10.6s
Pass Vol: 96 cuft
Lug Vol: 16 cuft
MPG: 48/45, 46 Comb
Emissions: BIN3/SULEVII (score 8/9.5)
Base MSRP: $21,100

Chevy Silverado 4WD 6L V8
MPG: 13/17, 14 Comb
Emissions: BIN5/BIN4 (score 6/7)

The Vue seems at least slightly more reasonable. It has a little more space and towing capacity than the Escape hybrid at roughly the same cost and performance, but pales in the mileage comparison. Its mileage is better than the Highlander Hybrid, and its cheaper, but no 4WD, no third row, its 3s slower to 60 and has less than half the towing capacity. For me I'd buy the HiHy if I needed the utility, otherwise I'd buy the Escape for the mileage/emissions. I guess its at least plausible someone might want the Vue?

Saturn Vue Hybrid FWD:
0-60: 10.2s
Pass Vol: 99.9 cuft
Lug Vol: 56.4 cuft
Towing Cap: 1500 lbs
MPG: 25/32, 28 Comb
Emissions: BIN4 (score 7)
Base MSRP: $25,995

Ford Escape Hybrid FWD:
0-60: 10.3s
Pass Vol: 99 cuft
Lug Vol: 27.8 cuft
Towing Cap: 1000 lbs
MPG: 34/30, 32 Comb
Emissions: BIN3/SULEVII (score 8/9.5)
Base MSRP: $26,640

Toyota Highlander Hybrid 4WD:
0-60: 7.2s
Pass Vol: 145.4 cuft
Lug Vol: 10.3 cuft
Towing Cap: 3500 lbs
MPG: 27/25, 26 Comb
Emissions: BIN3/SULEVII (score 8/9)
Base MSRP: $33,700

Rob

 

What? A 19mpg hybrid Land Barge, and the multitudes aren't running down in droves to snap 'em up? Unbelievable !

$120 to fill a gas tank (oh, that's only THIS week's fuel pricing) that'll take your typical solo soccer mom to the market, gramas house, to work, and to the movies.

What's wrong with people, Mr Lutz? Why can't they see what a genious you are?
.

 

The BAS hybrids are bandaids covering a gaping wound; i.e. 'No HYBRIDS HERE'.

The 2-Mode hybrids in the Tahoe/Yukon however are the real thing though. They both save more fuel than either the Camry hybrid or Highlander hybrid vis-a-vis their respective gasser twins. But GM has a huge problem to overcome. It's base clientele is not that interested in very efficient vehicles...and...up 'til now GM has been making fun of the whole idea. Now it has to remake its image and it has to convert all the heathens in its family to the reality that 'fuel efficiency' is not synonymous with the 'work of the devil'.

But both 2-Modes are very capable vehicles. They are just as capable as any of the other twinned vehices from Toyota or Ford or Honda and better than most. But just like Toyota started out crawling GM has to do so as well. Remember the first year the Prius was here it only sold 5000 units.

GM is now officially 7 years behind Toyota in this field. But Toyota has levelled the 'learning curve' for everyone else and along with Honda and Ford has done the grunt work to bring the hybrid concept to market. Those that follow will have it easier.

 

That's what I put my money on this one. GM is seeking a market of environmentally-sensitive gas-guzzler-buyers, or just people who really, deeply care about the mileage their new gas-guzzler is gets, but NOT people who are interested in saving money, because it's only sold fully loaded.

It's the spendthrift-environmentally-sensitive-gas-guzzler market.

See what I'm getting at? If you're worried about the cost (of gas) you wouldn't buy it. If you're worried about the amount of gas you use, you wouldn't buy anything like it. I guess they're after people who want to reduce their gas use (for non-monetary reason) and who, for whatever reason, would not buy anything smaller than this. That's got to be a pretty thin market.

 

It definitely appears to be an improvement, but I'm not sure I buy that its better than or even as good as HSD.

2008 Tahoe Hybrid 2WD vs. Tahoe 5.3L V8 2WD
0-60 (s): 9.0 vs. 8.0 (11% slower)
City MPG: 21 vs. 14
Hwy MPG: 22 vs 20
Cmb MPG: 21 vs. 16
Gal/100 miles: 4.76 vs. 6.24 (24% less)

2008 Camry Hybrid vs. 2008 Camry V6
0-60 (s): 7.7 vs. 6.0 (28% slower) MT numbers
City MPG: 33 vs. 19
Hwy MPG: 34 vs 28
Cmb MPG: 34 vs. 22
Gal/100 miles: 2.96 vs. 4.56 (35% less)

2008 Camry Hybrid vs. 2008 Camry 4cyl auto
0-60 (s): 7.7 vs. 9.5 (4cyl 23% slower) MT numbers
City MPG: 33 vs. 21
Hwy MPG: 34 vs 31
Cmb MPG: 34 vs. 25
Gal/100 miles: 2.96 vs. 4 (26% less)

Since the performance of the Camry Hybrid is pretty close to split between the 4cyl and V6, an average of ~30% improvement from the HSD seems a reasonable estimate. Quite a bit better than the 24% seen on the Tahoe, despite the hybrid version also being slower.

2008 Tahoe Hybrid 4WD vs Tahoe 5.3L V8 4WD
0-60 (s): ? >9 vs. 8.3 (>8% slower)
City MPG: 20 vs. 14
Hwy MPG: 20 vs 19
Cmb MPG: 20 vs. 16
Gal/100 miles: 5 vs. 6.24 (20% less)

2008 Highlander Hybrid 4WD vs Highlander V6 4WD
0-60 (s): 7.3 vs. 7.9 (V6 8% slower)
City MPG: 25 vs. 17
Hwy MPG: 27 vs 23
Cmb MPG: 26 vs. 19
Gal/100 miles: 3.84 vs. 5.28 (27% less)

Not surprisingly, the 4WDs don't do quite as well. Still the Highlander HSD improvement of 27% is quite a bit better than the Tahoe's 20%. Again, the difference is even a little bit greater, as the Highlander Hybrid is faster than its gas counterpart, while the Tahoe Hybrid is slower.

The 2-mode Vue doesn't appear to pick up much MPGs, but does get faster. If it delivers the preliminary numbers, it would be about 22% better than the 4cyl, and 32% better than the V6. The performance would be ~1s slower than the V6 but ~3s faster than the 4cyl, so that could put it in that same sort of 30% territory as the Camry. The Escape Hybrid is ~32% better than the 4cyl, and about 37% better than the V6. Numbers are hard to come by, but the Hybrid appears to be as fast or faster the V6. Sorry got tired of making little tables

Rob

 

How long before we hear this from Lutz? "Based on historical sales figures Americans are not interested in hybrid automobiles so Volt development is suspended."

 

You're right JimN, that will be Lutz's conclusion! Especially, if he listens to the J.D. Power guy "Americans' love affair might be waning" I'd believe that too if I did read the sales numbers.

 

Agreed and good analysis.

The point I was making was that in terms of actual fuel saved the 2-Modes are at least as good as any of the other 3 technologies. In some cases like switching from the 4c ICE Camry to the TCH the gain in fuel saved is less than the gain in fuel saved by going from the ICE T/Y to the 2-Mode of each.

From your figures the TCH saves 1.04 Gal/100 miles driven or about 156 gal per vehicle per 15000 mi driven annually. The 2-Mode T/Y saves 1.48 Gal/100 miles driven or about 222 gal per vehicle per 15000 mi driven annually.

I'd take a step farther. I'm so impressed by the 2-Modes that if it were possible I'd make it mandatory that every new BOF SUV sold today should be required to have the 2-Mode installed. This could never happen of course but the other sellers of SUVs are significantly behind GM in this area. They all, including Toyota, will continue to pump out 16 mpg dinosaurs while GM at least has the option to offer a 21 mpg dinosaur. Now whether the faithful pick up on this is another question.

This thread is scary...EPA Director: 75 mpg CAFE needed to reach CO2 emissions goals - GM Inside News Forum
Disregarding whether the subject is even possible or not the commentary that follows is hilarious ... and scary. It rings of 'You'll have to pry my cold dead fingers off the pump trigger.'

 

It is a thin market, and it isn't a market likely to grow if GM continues with it. Is there any word that they will. The first HiHy's around here with fully loaded limits that, IIRC, had sticker prices in the $45k + range. This is still the Tahoe's first year.
From a sales perspective it makes sense. Offer the loaded model first, and people who don't want the extras wait. Offer the base model first, and the people who want the extras get them after market. Which means your out that profit and behind recouping for the new tech R&D.

 

Wow, talk about an about-face for Lutz and the GM Apologists. Hybrids went from being laughed at, to not making "business sense," to "smoke and mirrors" as a GM Apologist put it, to now just being "slow" to move

Whatever

Of course, there are still folks out there who believe the earth is flat, and that the Toyota Prius is soley responsible for 100 years of environmental damage around Sudbury, Ontario

 

Wouldn't it make even more sense though to offer a base and loaded mile with the hybrid system like Toyota did with the Prius? This way those that don't want the extras don't have to wait and can buy today and those that want the extras can have them? People are like sheep if they see a ton of them on the road (even if they're base models) they're going to go to the dealer and check 'em out...and may ultimately buy a loaded model. If they never see one on the road they're going to seem "less cool" and that would completely go against the "keepin' up with the Jones'" mentality of the masses.