By the people?

I really can't find anything to refute that. I guess the only comment I can make is that most countries operate along similar lines.

 

Of course it's of the people, and always has been. Abe just didn't mention which people.

Of the rich people, by the rich people, for the rich people.

 

Let me point out something completely missed. The revolutionary part was formulating a new system of government that completely eliminated the class system. No House of Lords or herditary ownership of political posts. Far from perfect, but that part was a step in the right direction.

 

In favor a rich white people to run the country? What exactly was the difference?

Although good in concept, Jefferson warned the country what would happen if they didn't keep government under control.

A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor and bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
Thomas Jefferson

All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.
Thomas Jefferson

Conquest is not in our principles. It is inconsistent with our government.
Thomas Jefferson

Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty.
Thomas Jefferson

Every government degenerates when trusted to the rulers of the people alone. The people themselves are its only safe depositories.
Thomas Jefferson

Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.
Thomas Jefferson

I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.
Thomas Jefferson

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
Thomas Jefferson

I sincerely believe that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale.
Thomas Jefferson

It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world.
Thomas Jefferson

 

You really think we have no class system?

You think you have a shot at marrying Paris Hilton?

You think I could marry a Rockefeller or a Dupont?

You think the Kennedys would invite either of us over for dinner?

Of the people, by the people and for the people is just propaganda to get us to go along. Although I think some of the framers were idealistic enough to believe they could make it happen.

 

I guess the only comment I can muster at this point is that you expect everyone to perform to your definition of perfection. When in reality, as we all know, people only perform to a standard slightly above your own personal best.

Case in point. . .

1) Your swim with captured dolphins.
2) Your castigation of a young girl who had breast surgery, not for bigger breast, but because she had asymmetrical breast symptom (one breast significantly larger than the other).
3) Not so much your diatribe against religion but your degrading remarks to people on this board relating to their intelligence because they belong to a religion or believe in God.
4) Your less than tolerant attitude.
4) etc. etc. should I continue?

Does that help?



Wildkow

 

The wealthy elite start all the governments. The difference in ours is that many of those wealthy elite who formed our government had high ideals and a vision for our nation. For whatever injustices lie beneath the creation of our government, the Constitution, at the very least, represents a high ideal - something that many men wanted this country to represent. Many men and women have since ironed out some of the kinks along the way. This nation doesn't alway shine, but when it does, it shines so brightly. I still believe in the city on the hill. It just needs to be refurbished.

Humanity will always have the weaknesses that will one day get the best of it - greed, violence, war, intolerance, religious oppression, etc. To me, the Constitution represents a desire to be above those things, as well as a functional approach to creating law based on it. Jefferson penned most of it. Imperfect as he was, merely a man (albeit one very bright one), he believed in the principles put forth in it. I do, too (the ideals). As imperfect as Jefferson was, so are we all. I refuse, however, to be defined or to allow my nation to be defined only by what the selfish, greedy, sleazy, evil people do. I am still idealistic enough to believe they are not representative of the majority of Americans. I know that the degree to which scumbags have marred our nation's good name, that there are brave, kind, honorable Americans who represent us otherwise.

As a nation of people, if we allow our leaders to trample the ideals on which our government was built, we have lost everything, in my opinion. To disrespect them, to dishonor the Constitution, is a slap in the face to us all. Those who speak of patriotism and do such things are the worst kind of liars, the worst of leaders, and the most detrimental to all people. They will always be a part of this govenment, as well as in every other government. It's a sad reality. At least here we are allowed to stand forth and say, "This isn't right!!!" It isn't as easy as it used to be, though, thanks to the current pack of dirty birds in charge.

Swing pendulum.

 

Didn't like, we fight one of the (at the time) biggest wars ever to end slavery? The US Civil war... or something like that. I seem to recall an emancipation proclamation... something like that.

We're so EVIL! Eeeeevil I tell you!

 

Wow - Insert post, get responses!!! This is a decent topic to discuss, but it is not going to get very far if emotion is allowed to overwhelm common sense.

Fun Stuff - Marry Paris Hilton? I wonder how good of a mom she would make? Dinner with the Kennedys? - OK, but I'm not riding back with Teddy.

More Serious Stuff - Of course there is a class system in the USA. In fact there are hundreds of them. But exactly where is the US monarchy mentioned in the Constitution, or any other founding documents.? Answer-There is not. That was that point.

If the determination is to ONLY find the evil and bad stuff in the course of examining history, then you will have incredible success. The harder task is to extract what is working, what is not, and continue the effort to make life better for all. Is this worth discussing or not?

 

Yes, it's definitely worth discussing. I think the main point is that the government is not representative of the average person. This shouldn't really be a big surprise - the Golden Rule means that those with the gold make the rules - but it is a problem. It's impossible to develop a just and civil society when those with wealth and power use it only to better themselves. If the best we can hope for from our leadership after all this time is the equivalent of a kindly king, then we're really not making much progress.

 

I liked that response. Concise yet accurate.

Here is a too short list of things I think have worked and things that have not.
Good -
1) Elimination of a class structure of government (1st step out of hundreds)
2) Isolation from a National Church
3) The requirement for jury trials if requested

Not so good-
1) Concentration of all executive branch power in one person. (Whether you approve of the Iraq/Afghanistan deployments, the part I have a problem with is ONE person being able to initiate something that affects the entire world greatly.)
2) The SEC being organized to protect the investors of companies. (The employees, environment, and users of the companies products are not the SEC's concern.)

Other inputs?

 

It didn't start as such, but it sure ended that way. I know that nothing about this country can possibly be good in your opinion, and that's just sad.

 

Oh, come on now! I don't see how anyone can possibly think of anything bad to say about the Bush administration!

 

Actually the problem is thought like that, if you don't recognize the bad, you can never fix it, you perpetuate the bad by not trying to get rid of the bad and accepting it as good because it has always been.

In the case of the Civil War, if it weren't for the South leaving, slavery would have continued for a very long time, cheap labor for rich people works out that way. Want proof of that, look at America at the turn of the century after the civil war, what replaced slavery? Not even going to explain, look it up, you wouldn't believe me any way.

What caused slavery to end during and after the Civil War, was a good hard look at it, realizing that it was BAD, not accepting the status quo.