fuel system uses only water and air

This sounds awesome! A highly thermodynamically-favorable process reversed by using some type of specialized membrane? Wow!

"This process is allegedly similar to the mechanism that produces hydrogen by a reaction of metal hydride and water. But compared with the existing method, the new process is expected to produce hydrogen from water for longer time, the company said." Time? Are we talking years or hours?

 

Interesting concept, but the bond between H and O and H in water is pretty strong. Their Membrane Electrode Assembly must be unique to produce more energy, in the form of free hydrogen, than it consumes. Most fuel cells take H and combine it with O extracting electricity from the chemical reaction. This system seems to do the opposite.

 

I don't buy this.

So you put in water, and the membrane breaks it down into hydrogen and oxygen (endothermic reaction).

That's the source of hydrogen.

Then the hydrogen goes into the fuel cell, combining with oxygen in the air, yielding electricity and water.

2x H2O -> 2x H2 + O2 -> 2x H2O + energy

Does anybody else see the problem in this chemical reaction? Water to water. According to the laws of thermodynamics, this must require an input of energy, as there's always energy loss during energy conversion.


My guess is the "MEA" is the source of chemical energy which breaks down the water. The process uses up something in the MEA which is supplying chemical energy (not a true catalyst).

So pretty soon the MEA stuff will be used up, and you stop hydrogen production.

 

I have just dipped my toe into the pool of real estate sales, today I listed the Golden Gate Bridge. If you would buy the water and air for fuel line then I have an awsome deal for you...

 

We all see the problem with this. Snake Oil systems like this are why people need to learn a tiny bit of science while in school. It only takes two seconds to see that it will never work.

Tom

 

I'd love to read more about this, but I have to go shovel more
garbage into the Mr. Fusion.
.
_H*

 

some one needs a thermodynamics class and maybe a electro chemistry one as well....

I'm working on a project to run my Prius off Mr Fusion to generate the 1.21 gigawatts of power needed to power my flux capacitor.

 

And why haven't we discovered this yet? OH YEAH THAT'S RIGHT.....

Here are the links:
Yahoo!
http://www.genepax.co.jp

 

Too late! I already bought it ... from W.C. Fields!
We DO remember what his said, don't we? Something about one being born every second?

 

And there it is...........

So what would it take to convince any of you that this is possible? I news story, video, taking a ride in a car powered by water, what?

Do you really think the Japanese company is lieing about this car? So, maybe if we didn't spend all our time scoffing at the idea and tried if figure out how that kind of technology would be possible it might be an American on the news talking about producing such a car. Imiagine that, America leading the way again, that's a thought.

 

I have no doubt the car goes, I just seriously doubt that water (which is the exhaust eventually) is the actual "fuel."

Basic chemistry has taught me this isn't theoretically possible. It's not scoffing, it's being critical about the "free energy industry."

It looks to me the fuel isn't water, that's just an energy carrier. The actual fuel is whatever chemical is in the MEA that breaks down the water.

Turning water into oxygen and hydrogen gas requires energy. Simple as that. That energy is probably chemical in nature, and gets spent. Then you need to replace whatever it is in the MEA.

If you can turn water into water and get energy out of it, you have created a perpetual motion machine.

Either the company is being facetious or fooling themselves.

I've also seen a news article before (with video) of a guy who made a "hybrid" in his car powered by a bunch of car batteries, with a built in generator at the wheels. So when the car moves, it charges the battery, and would thus never require charging. It should seem pretty obvious that energy loss due to wind resistence, friction at the wheels, and acceleration will eventually deplete the battery. You cannot get more energy out of the generator than you put in.

 

you are correct and that's my problem with the operation, energy in can't = energy out, or vice versa. But to say it doesn't work when it clearly does is equivelent to poking your head in the sand. Clearly there's more to this than they're letting out. But it seems every time someone says something like this, running a car on water in whatever fashion, snakeoil gets thrown around and you don't even give it a chance or even try to understand what they're doing or how it's working.

 

The energy is clearly not coming from water, which is implied. That means something else must be replenished that provides the energy.

They state there's a material in the MEA that breaks down the water chemically, and they expect it to continue producing hydrogen for longer than current metal hydride technologies. This is also odd, as metal hydrides are considered for use in hydrogen storage, not production (unless you count after you've stored it).

If it's a similar reaction to metal hydride + water (which they state it is), then all they're doing is releasing hydrogen from the metal hydride, leaving hydrogen free metal. That means you need to replenish the metal hydride or metal hydride like material.

It is not clear that it works as advertised. It is clear that a car goes, but we don't know for how long. We don't know how soon the MEA material needs to be replenished. We do know that the energy can't come from water to water conversion. It's not entirely clear if the "fuel stack" was driving the car alone, or if it was charging the dry-cell battery they mentioned. I don't think you can really drive a car realtime with 300W (about half a horse power).

It's not that I don't look forward to new technologies, I'm just very skeptical of technologies that require breaking the laws of physics and/or chemistry.


Note: If anybody's interested, there's a pretty good Podcast called "The Conspiracy Skeptic" that did a show on Free Energy claims in May (favorite is still "The Skeptics Guide to the Universe" great science show).

 

Has there ever been a time it wasn't snake oil?

 

Snake Oil

With all this discussion of snake oil, this tidbit from Wikipedia is interesting:

 

It is as real as your shark fin and back wheels. I can see them on your avatar but I know they aren't real.

I saw a movie a man walked on the ceiling and although I saw that I know it wasn't real.

I'll believe it when it's been openly peer reviewed.

 

That's usually credited to P. T. Barnum although there is some dispute.

 

Hi All,

This sounds like a Galium/Aluminum Electrode work, also done at Purdue. Its disengious to call water the fuel, when the actual fuel is the Galium/Aluminum alloy that has to be replaced. The electrode decomposes to Alumina (AL2O3) as it consumes the oxygen in the water. The Galium makes keeps the surface of the Aluminum activated. Without it, the surface would coat over with AL2O3 in about 10 milliseconds, from the O2 in the air, which would deactivage the reaction with water.

The idea is that you use the Aluminum to generate Hydrogen to power a PEM fuel cell. The combined system is in effect an Aluminum Fuel Cell. Which is not a bad idea, but its in no way a Water for Fuel system.

 

An explanation like the one right above this post, that would convince me.

So the question is, how much/expensive is this "membrane" and how easy would it be to replace? How cool would it be though to simply plug it in and somehow reverse the reaction and you're good to go the next day. Kind of like... oh yeah.