how much will it cost to fill up an alternative fuel car? ?

The HSD is key to saving a bit of gas. The Prius is still a gasoline car. And that isn't gonna solve this.

Yes it wil cost more to fill up with H2 - if we're collectively stupid enough to continue down the Hydrogen path. We won't. No in the short term at least. We can't. If the concept of H2 was such a good idea, we'd all be driving around in Natural Gas cars today at a magnitude cheaper for the cars, and plentiful "clean" energy all around us. Most H2 is going to be stripped from our fossil fuels at great loss of efficiency in the chain.

Today it is pproximately 1/5 the cost to plug in vs gas up. And more importantly, we can control those costs as electricity is produced domestically from whatever we decide to make it from. We no longer have control over our oil/gasoline prices or supply. Well, we haven't for a while, but gosh, not it seems IMPORTANT.

I don't know if "we" do, but I sure do. Long-range, alternatives can and should be cheaper and far better for us in every way. I don't consider H2 as a viable alternative - of course it is not a source of any energy. Just like electricity, we have to make it with some other source.

But again, we have at least some control over our domestic energy. We have NO control over oil and gas. If we collectively wanted to solve this thing, we could do it - domestically. Those "jacked electricity rates" are still WAY cheaper and cleaner to use in fueling our vehicles.

They already have. They can and they do. And it is our best hope. We're only in trouble if we keep using oil, coal, etc. We NEED to move to solar, wind, etc. I did, and have never looked back.

No. The Prius uses gasoline to run. In stock form, there is no way to run it from any other energy source. Once it is a plug-in, then we're on the right track with two energy sources. Still better to completely get rid of the gasoline portion and run it completely on the cleanest, most available, most flexible, renewable energy carrier we have - electricity.

Here are a couple of videos for you to see what "fueling with an alternative energy" can mean. Some seem a bit repetative, because after doing one quickly, I was asked for something a bit "more."

So my answer to the question in your subject line: Zero.

 

Here's a quick wag. A decent EV should use about 200Wh/mile. Lets say charging efficiency is 80%, so thats 250 ACWh/mi. If you drive 15,000 miles per year, thats 3750kWh. The US average electricity rate is 9c/kWh, so your yearly EV fuel bill would be $337.50 if you charged during the day. At night you should be paying much less, say 3c/kWh or $112.50. Here in AZ, 3750kWh would put out 4.1 tons of CO2. In CA I believe power can be as expensive as 23c/mi peak, which would be $862.50

By comparison, a Prius at 46mpg would cost $1330.43 at the current $4.08/gallon. CO2 emissions are 4.0 tons. An average 22mpg car would cost $2781, with CO2 emissions of 8.2 tons.

If money is all you are worried about, the EV is much cheaper. If CO2 is primary concern, you might be slightly better off driving a Prius unless you buy or produce green energy. In most places green power can be purchased for less than 3c/kWh surcharge. That would add up to $112.50 to be CO2 free.

Lastly, if you want to be CO2 free, and independent of potential rises in energy costs you could install your own solar array. I'll use AZ numbers as those are what I'm familiar with. To cover the 3750kWh you would need annually, you'd need to install a 2.35kW DC rated system. That system would run about $14,000 but you'd get $9,000 of that back from the local utitlity and state and federal tax credits. So for $5,000 you could drive for 20 to 25 years CO2 free. Thats a fuel cost of ~$200-$250 per year guaranteed for 20-25 years. The downside is the upfront cost. Even if you put the $5k upfront cost into a 30 year mortgage you'd probably be looking at no more than $500 per year.

Solar is a little bit pricey when you are trying to offset relatively cheap electricity, but when you are offsetting gasoline its a bargain! The fact that we could all be driving for $200/yr polution free gives you a little bit of an idea why the EV people get so animated about the current situation :madgrin:

Rob

 

My plans for the future are to eventually buy an EV and put MORE photovoltaic panels on the roof. So far, no EV meets my needs. GMs EV1 would have, but they wouldn't sell them, only lease. I didn't even know Toyota made an EV Rav4. Probably because it was after I bought my car in 1996 and wasn't in the market for another car until 2005. I also would not have paid much attention to anything like an SUV, not even a small one. But, had I known they had an EV, I probably would have traded in or sold my Saturn to buy one and put PV on my roof even sooner than I did. As is.....I'm ready when the right car comes along.

 

sounds great but it isnt just the $14000 for the solar cells. Its also the conversion of my Prius. That could be another $15000 or so. We all want to drive cheaper and with zero CO2 and pollution but can we afford to set up? Not all of us can.

I can afford to put gas in my two Prii right now and drive sensibly. Thats all I can do the way things are right now.

 

Depends on what alternative fuel you are referring to . . .

I am a big believer in natural gas. The pipelines are already in place, stations (not many, I must agree) are set up, and there's plenty of it, no shortage whatsoever. This fuel burns extremely clean, with almost no emissions.

I'm going to try the CNG route, converting my car over. i live in Utah, where it's only 64 cents a GALLON - that's 6 times cheaper than gas right now, and much more if you're on diesel. A local place ( CNGOutfitters.com) sells the converters for around $1500, so you could pull even in like 6 months (depending on your job). It's a bit much up front, but you could spend much more later, especially the way gas prices are going . .. AND you can even install them on hybrids . . .wink .. . .wink :loco:

 

You have to set your sights higher than that! Converted Prius? Why still push around all the ICE pieces? The goal here - on that is absolutley attainable - is full battery EVs at price parity with, say, the Prius. I paid $42,000 for my Rav (before incentives) and while I didn't set out to save money (not even a little bit!) it sure turned out that way. Five years ago I spent $45,000 (after incentives) and got a brand new car (still the daily driver today) and fuel for that car - and any EV that follows) for the rest of my life.

New car and fuel forever. $45,000.

Hello?

 

hello?

I have a mortgage and two new cars now. Maybe in 5 years or so I can consider your idea.

 

Wait, how does that work? Short version, please. You'll never have to pay to replace the batteries?

 

Sure, but the batteries aren't the fuel, they are the container for the fuel. It is analogous to replacing the gas tank.

A better question is if he's ever likely to need to replace or repair the solar panels.

 

Thats my base assumption. To drive 15,000 miles per year on pure electric you need a true BEV, not just a PHEV. As to whether its feasible....

In 1997 the EV1 lead acid had a base efficiency of 164Wh/mile combined cycle. Net AC Efficiency was 248 Wh/mile. DOE tested combined cycle range was 78 miles (guessing this was the early Delco batteries?). The 1999 NimH version combined cycle range went up to 140 miles, but base efficiency dropped to 179 Wh/mile and net AC efficiency to 373 Wh/mile. Its my understanding that part of this hit was due to GM trying to shoehorn the NimH batteries into the battery tunnel they had designed for the lead acid pack. This lead to heat problems, requiring active cooling of the batteries. A properly designed pack with proper ventilation, and a more efficient charging algorithm (maybe at the cost of a little range) would have probably brought this back down near the lead acid efficiency numbers. Production cost estimates I've seen are in the range of $50,000 in the 100s basically built by hand.
http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/genmot.pdf
http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/ev1_eva.pdf
http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/toyrav98.pdf

10 years later and given the benefits of volume production, you would expect that they could do much better and yet the late 90s design was not far off the mark. Everyone talks about needing a 300 mile range, but the reality is that 100 mile would do just fine for the vast majority of people. Everyone talks about needing fast charging and an immense remote charging infrastructure when the reality is that charging at home on a standard outlet overnight would work just fine for the vast majority of people. IMHO a 100 mile EV and a 30-40 mile PHEV would be an ideal combination for most American families, and would take a drastic chunk out of our fuel consumption. The problem has been how to convince people that they can live with what they actually need. I think the fuel cost argument could very well be the way to finally convince them.

When people come to understand that while the gas for their average 22mpg car costs $4.08/gallon, the "gas" for an EV costs 16c-50c per "gallon" depending on what time of day you plug it in, I think that will get a lot of peoples attention. Even compared to the Prius the EV is like getting gas at 34c-$1.03 per gallon. Once the demand is there, I think people will initially be much more interested in a $25k car that goes 100 miles than a $35k car that goes 200 miles.

As far as the solar goes, think of it this way: Someone you trust comes along and says they have a deal for you. They can get you special emissions free, 100% domestically produced gas at 70c per gallon and can guarantee that the price will not go up for 20-25 years. The only catch is you have to pre-pay for $5k worth to have access and have to use it, you can't resell it. How hard would you try to scrounge up that $5k?

Assuming that purchasing a Prius and 100 mile EV are on par, the $5k extra investment for the solar array for the EV would net a 22.6% annualized ROI assuming gas for the Prius stays at $4.08 for the next 25 years. If gas averages $5/gallon for the next 25 years you're up to 28.6%. At $3/gallon you're only earning 15.5%. Who knew saving the planet could be so profitable?

Rob

 

Howdy!

I'm only showing my situation. Not saying it can happen for everybody. Just that it can happen.

Short verson:
Cost of solar panels plus car was $45,000. The panels will produce electricity for the next 50 years, regardless of if the car falls apart, I buy a new one, etc. I'll always have some sort of EV here. The batteries are proving to last the life of the car. If you want the longer answer, I can now sell my car for $70,000, and then the amount I paid for all this is NEGATIVE.

Then I'm REALLY glad that I posted!

It is only a little bit more powerful than the gas version. It was made as fleet car, not as a family car. And in fact they had to add torque control since the fleet drivers were burning the rubber off the front tires. No kidding!

$45,000. The car is today worth $70,000

Absolutely none. You did watch the videos? The purpose of those was to cover these questions. The motor is good for over 1 million miles with zero maintenance.

Right now I'm subsidizing oil and 6,000+ pound SUVs. Let's level the playing field, and I'm happy to pay my share. That "significant" increase in the price of fuel may bring it all the way up to 1/4 the cost of gas??

Good one!

All kidding aside, renewables CAN absolutely be profitable. All the nay-saying about the jobs it will cost us to get off oil are just crazy. We start making our energy here, and we increase jobs locally, and keep our money here. We have no choice really - we HAVE to start controlling our energy, or we have no security or control of our future... or finances.

 

Maybe true, but for now its the opposite. Again using AZ numbers (each state has their own incentives) you can get $2,000 federal tax credit, $1,000 state tax credit, a ~43% utility rebate, and you even get a sales tax and property tax exemption. Sounds way better than paying fuel taxes to me. One more reason to act soon before the party is over

Rob