Too much wind power

Thanks. I was going to read up on it before I committed. It took me 20 years to finally install the PV. Maybe when I finally get around to researching wind, they'll have improved it for small home installations. For now, I have plenty of other fish to fry.

 

Vertical Axis Turbines will probably be the way to go for residential installations. The problem with the horizontal axis turbines is that turbulence can dramatically reduce their efficiency. To overcome this problem you usually site the turbine a fair height above the ground (also, wind velocities are generally higher aloft). Things like trees and rooftops play old harry with the wind at the ground surface, which is why you want to get the turbines up on towers. That usually isn't practical for most residential installations (HOAs, etc). VATs handle turbulence a lot better, so you can site them closer to the ground. The problem is that they currently cost a lot more, being a much younger technology. I don't know if they'll ever make sense on the small scale. Some renewables just make more sense at the utility scale, CSP is a good example.

 

One of the significant problems with vertical axis turbines, is,,,there aren't any proven, reliable ones out there. There are some significant efficiency issues as well. There is a lot of smoke out there RE vhts but very little fire. When I begin to read enough good feedback about some brand I will reconsider my opinon.

innovation wind generator - Solar Electric Discussion Forum

Icarus

 

Yes. This is what I was considering. Not a propellor job on a tall pole.

Perhaps something like THIS.

But I just put a lot of money into the PV and the tankless water heater so I'm done for now. Besides, I'd probably have to get another invertor just for the wind and who knows what other grief SDG&E would have about the wiring or something, wind being much more unpredictable than solar.

I think the wind will be put off until such time I see a need to go off the grid. If that time comes....Wind gets added.

 

Good Answer. I will always respect responses like that. Your good answer also caused some very educational responses. I must always thank those that provide good education (for me and others.)

 

Let me know when you get one that works,,,, You'll be the first!

Seriously, there is tons of "vapor ware" out there with small scale wind. The basic problem, long term is too much mechanical forces on systems that have to run 24/7 in all kinds of weather. The mechanical failure rate of all small scale wind turbines (that I am aware of) is close to 100%. Couple that with having to work on them at dangerous heights, wind rain, ice etc. and we have found that MOST people who were high on the idea (as was I) have torn them down. As the link you provide states, 2 prototypes have been operating for a couple of years. Not a very good track record given the potential investment.

Good luck,

Icarus

 

Ah, now that requires an opinion. A deeper look at the NREL data from many sites indicates that bird death occurs at nearly every wind capture area, but at most locations the number of deaths is "negligible" (their term). Except for Altamont, numbers at or below 0.05 birds/turbine/year seem to be the norm. I have to believe that our other methods of producing electricity, most of which we take for granted, are at least as bad, and probably worse. But, I haven't made an in-depth study, so I can't back that up with anything other than my gut feeling. The Altamont area, probably the highest mortality WRA in the US, produces ~1.1 TWh (terawatt-hours) of electricity per year, at a cost of about 1,000 bird fatalities. That's about one bird per gigawatt-hour. IMHO, that is probably a lower price to pay than the other options we embrace daily (2¢). A previous post had some links to the Audubon Society that seem to indicate they have reached the same conclusion.

And, in digging around at the NREL site, here's another link on the original topic:

NREL: Hydrogen and Fuel Cells Research - Wind-to-Hydrogen Project

They're piloting a wind to hydrogen process by way of electrolyis, and using the hydrogen to be able to both store and transport the wind energy. Don't know if it will go anywhere, but interesting reading.

 

As someone way smarter than me suggested,,"Why not use the electricity directly, instead of all the inefficiencies of making the Hydrogen and then burning it?" Hydrogen is still a loser IMHO.

Icarus

 

Dispatchable power is, however, worth a lot more than variable power, so it may make economic sense. This is the same reason that pumped storage is economic in places like CA, where day time electricity is very expensive. If you have wind blowing in the evening/night, why not use it to pump water to a higher elevation? If you sold the power straight away, you'd make pennies, but if you store it (with all of the losses incurred along the way) and then sold it at peak demand the next day, you'd make pounds. If you were a wind farm operator, which would you choose?

 

What water?

If we had any, we'd drink it.

 

But I want to be the crafty person who buys electricity at the penny rate and let the rest pay the pound rate.......

 

Arrgh. You caught me between edits. Oh well, I got a good opinion out of it.

 

That may be somewhat true, but none of the current crop of eco-friendly electricity generation techniques will make it as a major player unless we figure out a storage method. Solar only works about six hours per day. Wind can go for a long time, but can also go calm for a long time. Same for wave generators. Tidal power has more predictable down times, but they still exist. Only geothermal seems to be relatively reliable, but the environmental impacts are much greater than originally predicted, and, in most cases the field longevity is less.

If we can't figure out a storage method, then pretty much the only other option is a global grid. The sun is always shining, the wind is always blowing, the waves and tide are always on the go somewhere in the world. I'm guessing that storage of some sort, even with inefficiency, is more realistic and more probable.

The one aspect we are not discussing here is the electricity not used. I think Icarus has pointed this out on other threads, but the most effective dollar spent is usually the one that goes toward not using electricity in the first place. That's been my personal experience, dollars I spend to not use electricity have a far greater return than dollars I spend to generate electricity in a "green" manner.

 

As a solar installer/consultant I know a bit about the contraints. See my post on Plug in hybrids as a gigantic battery source that could help make RE more available 24/7

Icarus

 

Since it will probably be 10-20 years before I get around to adding wind, I imagine there will be some available for home use by that time.

 

Geothermal can provide baseload power. So can landfill gas and biomass, but they will never be more than small time players in all probability.

CSP has the ability to store heat for varying periods of time, which makes it a better option in most cases than PV, for utility scale projects. Storage of energy is a big issue and has to be tackled at some point. In the mean time, we ought to be employing the renewables that make sense as much as we can, within the numerous constraints placed upon us (technical and economic).

And yeah, we should really be pushing "negawatts" to the hilt because that will make everything so much easier.

 

So how much talk has there been in CA lately about a massive desalination effort? Seems that it's only a matter to time.

 

We have water, but we freeze in the winter. Life is full of compromises.

Tom

 

I have just had 5 days off in the last 6.
I only read what interests me on here and being interested I often post.
I have my PC in a traffic area, each time I pass I check the forum, I stay logged in all day.
I worked today and I'm working tomorrow, I have to be up for work in 5 hours. crap!!! Good night.

Keep building wind turbines, if I could build one in my yard I would. It isn't allowed here.

Godiva, don't attach it to the house because they do make some noise and it will reverb through your house.

These work I'm told, Wind - Grid Connect

 

power provided on demand is much more valuable, and the output of the Altamont station surprises me...one terawatt??? wow...i had no idea...but then it begs the question...

is that output more than the base load for the entire state of CA at ANY TIME??... why couldnt other sources be scaled back?? now i realize (my dad was a nuke power plant operator) that doing this with nuclear is not feasible since power down and up cycles take too long to be practical, but if every other fossil fuel source was scaled back to minimum output, how much extra power are we talking about??

from my perspective in the northwest, it seems that california buys almost as much power as it produces internally so talk of ways to store power from the wind farms seems like a waste of time to me...

as far as pumping water, sure hydro dams do it around here simply because of the huge variance in water flow... its not efficient by any means, but levels of the dam have to be maintained in both summer when the lake levels would drop rapidly (this is mostly done to preserve value of lake front property...lame excuses imho) and in spring where the dam would be overwhelmed in a matter of days from winter run off.

the amount of power needed to lift the water is enormous... true, the huge turbines are extremely efficient, but nearly any other method would be more efficient... like water heating etc... but since the dam is already there (to recover power), the storage pond convenient (dug out to provide materials for dam), and the scale of the operation is...well, if you have ever seen a dam before, the scale is already there....they are HUGE...

one parting shot.... even after all the region's power needs are met (that includes the huge power needs of the aluminum plants that line the columbia, pumping water to irrigate the eastern part of the state, and selling a lot of power to Cali) we still have enough left over power capacity to charge an estimated 60,000,000 EV's...