Talk me in to a Prius

Given that Prius and VW TDI are on your short list, I suggest that you consider adding a third car to the list for your test drives this weekend: Honda Civic Hybrid.

This car handles better than the regular Prius, while fuel economy is similar. The main thing that bugs me about HCH is that the gasoline engine runs at all times while the car is moving.

Good luck with your decision.

 

Just bear in mind the Jetta is a much bigger car than the Golf, and the new Jetta has a bigger engine and faster performance. The pre-release buzz was 50 state emissions, zippier, and much better mileage to boot. In reality I think they hit 2 out of 3, but the mileage came in a bit disappointingly even if you accept VW's independently tested 40mpg combined over the EPAs 33mpg. The EPA does admit their test currently under-estimates diesels, so the 40mpg combined may be more realistic. Still, thats about the same as the current Jetta, and better performance and much improved emissions without giving up any fuel economy is still pretty impressive. Of course with the higher cost of diesel, 40mpg costs the same to drive as a 35mpg gas car.

As far as what the Prius really gets, I can offer two data points:

The first is a database of over 1700 drivers of all shapes and sizes whose lifetime averages come out to 47.6mpg. I have yet to see anything like this from the diesel community, despite several requests made over on tdiclub. There are plenty of anecdotal "I get 55mpg all day" stories, but the few people who actually keep lifetime records show more like 40-45mpg and there doesn't seem to be any sort of large repository of many drivers. The best I can find for the '06 Jetta TDI is the database on fueleconomy.gov where 56 users are averaging 41.2mpg.

Prius: Hybrid Mileage Database - GreenHybrid
Jetta TDI: Model 1 Vehicle Characteristics

The second is my own personal observations under various conditions. I will say that I believe the Prius may be more sensitive to driving style and conditions than the tdi. If you are willing to work at getting good results, the Prius can be amazing (and no that doens't mean driving slow). If you are unwilling to make any adjustments it will suffer. I'm no expert on driving the Prius, and certainly no hyper-miler, but I do make an effort to get good numbers as long as it doesn't interfere with safety or make me late to get everywhere. Based on that, here's what I get in various conditions:

42-45mpg: 110F in Phoenix, AC cranked, no adjustments to driving mixed hwy/city
~45mpg: In a big hurry, driving hard and aggressive (like I used to drive my WRX )
~48mpg: mixed driving in winter (50-60F) before installing partial grill block, then back to normal.
48-52mpg: 110F in Phoenix, AC on auto, AC off at stops, minimize engine stops, park in shade, more hwy than city
48mpg: ~70F, cruise control on 70-75 Phoenix to LA roundtrip (includes several mountain passes)
52-55mpg: Typical sept-may mostly highway commute (18 miles RT), some traffic, ~55-60mph
55mpg: Typical sept-may surface street commute (18 mile RT), urban traffic, lights, 35-45mph, no special techniques
65mpg: Typical sept-may surface street commute (18 mile RT), urban traffic, lights, pay attention to driving modes, accelerate smoothly, time lights as much as possible, coast as long as possible to red lights, accelerate smoothly in deadband mode (not too fast, not too slow).

Here is a link to a comparison I did a little while back:
http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-hybrid-news/49909-2009-vw-jetta-tdi-emissions-results.html
This was primarily a look at emissions, but provides some good numbers on other things as well. My takeaway was that the Prius is still the king when it comes to energy independence/crude oil consumption, operating costs, overall cost of ownership, CO2 output and tailpipe emissions.

Bear in mind too that the TDI is brand new, while the Prius is 4-10 years old. Next years redesigned Prius ('10, arriving mid '09) will be larger, faster, and 10-15% better in FE further widening the gap with the Jetta TDI IMHO.

Hope that helps,

Rob

 

How does it do on the Car Safety scores? This is a PDF file.

http://www.libertymutual.com/omapps...me=PersonalMarket/Document/ShowDoc&c=Document

 

The 09 TDI requires AdBlue (NH4) injection to reduce NOx emission in order to meet CA emission. This is another operating cost of the TDI. Anyone know how much a bottle or gal costs?

I suggest looking at the Camry Hybrid too, it has the performance, roominess and looks. The tradeoff is a little less MPG. Price is similar to a loaded Prius.

 

If you consider a Prius, you'll probably want to get the touring model as it is more comparable to the TDI's handling.

 

Wow! For contrast, my Lexus SC400 which has 280K miles on it now has never had a single repair for anything. Still looks and drives like new inside and out. The only thing I've done to it is replace the leather and other interior pieces that were damaged due to neglect or stupidity. I change the oil about every 10K miles and the transmission fluid when I do the engine oil(people neglect their auto trans but over change the oil on their engines).

I just recently changed the timing belt, water pump, idlers, serpentine, sparkplugs, caps, rotors, wires, and serpentine idler all of which had 200K miles since the first and only other previous change.

Two recent pictures:




Oh, and by the way, it's also a Toyota.

 

I think the sizing of drivetrain components is the real issue. The sucking the battery dry in no time makes no sense. If you accelerate up to the same speed regardless, you shouldn't use more battery, you'll just use the same but at a higher rate for a shorter period.

 

I'll play: The last commuter car I had was a 2001 VW GTI VR6, which I sold specifically because it consistently got no better than 20 mpg eating premium fuel and with an empty Yakima roof rack on top. The mileage was as such even after replacing that plug that seems to go bad in that generation (4th?) of VW.

...Why you'd want to get a VW TDI or Prius depends on what attracts you to a car, why you drive the car, and your age. Since you mentioned fuel economy, I'd add to the rest of the posts that the car comes at a premium (for its size), but the cost is upfront. From then on, the running costs are less volatile, i.e. when going across town, you need not grimace whether gas costs $3/gal or $5/gal.

As for performance, my benchmark for a compact car is the 3rd generation Acura Integra, which I drove and liked very much for almost ten years. The Prius is a bit clunky out of the box, but improves with chassis mods and better tires. So far, I've added a front upper strut brace; handling has become tolerable and occasionally even entertaining (for a sedan). Even the VW GTI was inferior to the Integra, being rather heavy and little less firmly sprung. Not sure am I about the latest TDI, since I have yet to drive one.

The reason I mention age is because car purchases are often influenced (for better or worse) by the image they convey on other people. If you plan on driving the car for pure commuting purposes, then who cares. Actually, for commuting, the car can help because its squeaky clean reputation makes you less attractive to bored patrol cops (well, that is unless you're going over 100 mph and related to a former vice president). On the other hand, if you're single, young or "Flash" is your middle name, then don't expect admiring looks from all the schoolgirls just because you have a four-door economical sedan. Even in Berkeley, the girls don't care, but maybe that's because every fourth car in the bay area is a Prius!

In short, the Prius is a good car for practical reasons. Your stuff fits in the trunk or on the roof as well as any other car, all your friends fit and can entertain themselves with all its gadgets, and you can take all the trips you'd like without calculating the cost of fuel first. However, if the driving experience matters most to you and you rarely haul any stuff (e.g. bike, surfboard, camping gear, etc.), then other compact cars may offer a better bang-for-the-buck, even after considering $4/gal gas.

Definitely let us know of your experience. I'm also not a "tree hugger," but I'm happy with my Prius. It does everything it's designed to do.

 

May be some videos I made may do the honor. You can't do that with another other non-HSD cars. If you don't find them facinating, this car may not be for you.

What sold me about the Prius was a web site by Graham.

[ame="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1249151750835859956&hl=en"]1.5 Miles on Pure HV Battery Power with Prius in LIE Traffic Congestion[/ame]

 

Both are great cars. Don't ask people what to buy. Test drive both, read up on them, and you'll see which one best fits your needs.

 

If you buy a Prius in the future, you'll be happy to know that the transaxle refill capacity is 4 quarts, ATF WS. Very little old fluid remains after the Prius transaxle is drained.

 

A fellow I work with bought a HCH not long after I got my Prius. I consistently get 10 MPG more that him on average.
I've driven his and test driven the HCH prior, and the thing that strikes me is how ordinary the whole experience is. It's like driving any other HC or car in general, for that matter. Also, the gas pedal was so stiff it was difficult to manipulate the Hybrid capabilities. My back seat and hatchback are far roomier and useful. Nothing wrong with the HCH, but once you've been liberated from the ordinary by a Prius, nothing else compares. Just the thought of having to stick a key in an ignition switch to start the car makes me cringe.
Some people don't like thing to be different from what they become comfortable with, but sometime different it definetly better.
After driving the Prius for so long I like all the unique differences, that in fact become more convenient, logical, efficient and engaging.
Different is better. From the way you lock/unlock it, start it, shift it, don't need a key, operate feature through a touch screen or voice command. And most of all drive on electric power and (for me, use 1/3 the gasoline I was using.)

As for VW, they're not all that reliable. Not criticism, just fact.

 

That's very nice. That means I could do it every 30K miles instead.

 

If you're looking for an economy car, buy a Yaris.

The Prius isn't an economy car (economy cars don't cost $30,000), its a midsized car (like a Camry or Passat) whose claim to fame is the cutting edge hybrid system and the economy it provides wrapped in a futuristic package with very very low carbon emissions.

You have to be interested in the right things for the Prius to appeal to you. If you're not interested in the technology and don't like the package there are better and cheaper options.

 

I've never understood this bulls*** about fast this and power that, unless you have a teeny reproductive organ

You mentioned this fire breathing dodge ram turbodiesel. No doubt you have that custom tuning box that allows the truck to blow clouds of black smoke too.

Why does that dodge need so much power? Are you pulling a 40 ft 5th wheel camper all the time? If you need to regularly pull loads that heavy, instead of stressing light duty pickup parts that won't handle the torque/power anyway, you should step up to a medium duty truck

One of the best and favorite medium duty trucks for full-time 5th wheel towing is based on the Freightliner M2 106 chassis. It comes standard with a Mercedes 900 engine, which puts out anywhere from 170-250 hp. A Mercedes stick shift is standard, various Mercedes and Allison automatics are optional.

Folks I've spoken to using a Freightliner M2 with MB 900 250 HP and 6 speed Allison report 15 mpg towing a 40 ft Gulfstream 5th wheel. They used to have a 1 ton Dodge dually Cummins, and got no better than 12, with far less performance

 

Don't be an a-hole. Thats the sign of having a tiny reproductive organ too.

 

Absolutely, that is the transaxle fluid service interval that I personally observe. In fact I will be doing the 60K mile service this weekend on my 2004, including transaxle fluid.

 

Wow touchy

I've never understood these jacked up pickups blowing black smoke all over the landscape. We have the right to own and drive them, but it's cute when folks complain about what it costs to fill them up

Anyway, stick a fork in this thread, it's done