US Sales of Hybrids Down 8.9% in September

Re: It's 1 am, I'll chime in, I'm bored...

Wrong. The used car pricing has exceeded new in many cases.

Read the above quoted article. They can't make enough. When you have no inventory and are unable to produce more, your sales will not rise. Despite the loss of the sticker and tax credits, they are selling all they can produce.

This probably has more validity as everything that could be shipped before Oct. 1, 2007's expiration would have been shipped (driving up the previous Sept. figures.)

Not enough to make a large difference in the operational cost. A bigger factor is the reduced ability of the average buyer to finance a purchase. Another factor is that vehicles that have been selling poorly are now HUGELY discounted while the Prius is not. So if one was to compare on a relative pricing basis the effective cost of the Prius has shot up simply because the absolute price has not declined as others have.

Quite the opposite. I find the seats comfortable and much better than some others I've ridden in (all of the domestics). I prefer them over my old Accord. I was expecting less from the Prius than it has provided--many of the expected compromises haven't proven to be true.

Quite the opposite again. They are becoming ubiquitous rather than niche. Drivers are moving toward them, rather than away. Supply has been an issue, not demand.

Self-refuting: If they are "committed to the cause" then they are willing to "endure." As it is, the vehicle is not nearly as spartan as you assert so I'll attribute this to your over-active imagination.

So they a "niche" but not niche. Someone has swallowed the CNW Marketing playbook. I don't know many people (any, actually) that buy a car because some movie star or other public figure has one. Mainstream car buyers tend to go for what they perceive as their need. And the sales info shows that they demand the Prius more than other vehicles. So your relative basis is wrong.

I think they will rise just as soon as extra supply becomes available. You can't sell more if you can't make more and you've been selling all you made. No mystery to that, no opinion or guessing necessary.

You've also made so many mistaken conclusions in that paragraph that it is worth refuting: Folks will pay more money if the return is decent or the perceived features/amenities are sufficient. For the Prius the operational return is excellent on the supposed "premium." Comfort and convenience are not really an issue--especially for this mid-sized car in this price range. Environmental aspects are just an added bonus for many of us, not the deciding factor.

 

typical anti-hybrid troll

So, instead you resort to personal attacks. I comprehended your post w/o any issues.

I have issue w/your bogus conclusions based upon cherry picking of facts, your opinion, and unsubstantiated assertions.

 

Also, there were some dealer incentives going on in Feb/March 07 as well (at least in our area). We bought our Prius in that time frame to take advantage of both the tax credit and the incentives. The incentives, of course, were there because there was a surplus of Prii all of a sudden, whereas not long before that people still had to be put on waiting lists.

BTW, in April the tax credit on Toyota hybrids was actually halved a second time from $1300 to $750 or so, and was eliminated completely by September.

 

Re: typical anti-hybrid troll

I wouldn't worry about him too much. He couldn't handle your grasp of numbers and apparently doesn't know or care what the word "assertion" means. And he doesn't have a hybrid, so he's completely spouting off about things he doesn't know (as was pretty obvious to all Prius owners).

The only problem is he's a repeat poster, so we might see more of his nonsense which could confuse people shopping for vehicles. Not that that would affect Prius sales at this point, they already can't keep up with demand.

It is educational however to see the list of reasons an uneducated person might have against the Prius.

 

"typical anti-hybrid troll" Really?

I am a peaceful and diplomatic person by nature, but not a doormat, so let us examine this post.

"Grasp of numbers"? None of us has a crystal ball; we really do not know the future of Prius and hybrid sales. We can examine every Internet article posted until we are blue in the face.

What is our operational definition of "assertion"? I hope that no one is assuming there is one definitive definition. I will offer that Merriam-Webster defines it as "stating or declaring positively and often forcefully or aggressively", neither of which I did.

Not a Prius owner? Actually, I was the proud owner of a 2005 Prius, and currently am the owner of a 2007 Prius.

"As was pretty obvious to "'all Prius owners'"? Really? They should "all" chime in to support you.

Yes, a repeat poster, with many positive things to say about Prii and hybrids in general, which you would know if you had read my posts. But you didn't.

Uneducated? About what? I know of the Prius, as an owner of two. Are we discussing academic credentials? I am on solid ground. I hold a B.A. and an M.A. in Sociology, and I am working on my M.A. in English literature.

I am disinclined to address Shawn Clark’s post, which is lengthy, inaccurate, unsupported, and a butchery of logic.

I will offer, however, in the interest of my nature and of good will, to state again, that all I did in my original post was speculate as to possible reasons for a decline in Prius sales. I never held my opinions out to be factual, even qualifying them at the beginning and the end of the post to be "thoughts". For whatever reason, hypersensitivity, insecurity, or something else, you and the other two in this thread launched an attack on me, including calling me an "anti-hybrid troll", when in fact I have been a multiple-Prius owner and positively contributing member of this forum for some time. It appears that it is verboten for anyone to express any opinions on the Prius that are not completely flattering, which is contrary to the very nature of this forum.

I am not going to engage in a flame war, so if anyone would like to continue the discussion via PM, I am happy to do so in a civil and reasonable manner, which is all I am, and was, asking for.

 

Re: "typical anti-hybrid troll" Really?

There is more than adequate support for what I wrote. What you wrote is a bunch of speculation that is unsupported by fact. It appears that you will not address it because you have nothing intelligent to add other than a lame personal attack.

The statements you made were in direct contradiction to the resale value of the Prius (and relative lack of them for resale.) They were also in direct contradiction to Toyota's own capacity limitation statement only a few posts earlier in the article. You spun a bunch of non-sense that is counter to basic market operation.

And to top it off, Consumer Reports has shown the Prius with the highest "would you buy it again" rating at 92%--the 4th year it has been tops. This is completely counter to your speculation and assertions.

So either back up your claims, or shut up.

 

Re: "typical anti-hybrid troll" Really?

You admitted you were giving some ideas without research, cwerdna responded with actual numbers that disproved some of your hypotheses, and you responded with a personal attack. If you have a problem with cwerdna's post, provide a valid argument based on fact, don't start name-calling.

I agree you weren't unusually forceful or aggressive, but the rest of it holds (other than the disclaimer at the beginning of the post).

So why doesn't your profile reflect that? I apologize for the assumption I mistakenly made based on the facts I saw.

Other than you, um yeah, we do seem to be in agreement.

But you didn't even bother to read the previous posts in this thread, which clearly states it was a production issue, not a demand issue, and instead you come up with a bunch of overblown negative things about the Prius.

And I've got two degrees in engineering, but that wasn't the point. Uneducated about the Prius, like calling it a niche car (it outsells all Subarus put together or all Volvos. Do you call those niche cars also?) and that the second-hand market is driving down demand on the new cars, when in reality a good used Prius costs essentially as much as a new one. Celebrity status has not been a factor since the redesign in 2004, yet the waiting lists are persistent. I could go on, as others already have.

pot. kettle.

I didn't see the title had been changed from the OP by a previous poster until after I finished my post. I should have edited that, so I'm sorry about that attack.

I do want this forum to be open to valid criticisms. Like the seats, yes some people complain about them and it is something Toyota should address (personally I think the Land Rover is much worse in my experience, but it doesn't mean the Prius couldn't be improved). But the combined effect of the various criticisms, many of which we have hashed over in years past and occasionally are raised by actual trolls or at least non-owners, and that your profile says "other non-hybrid" led me and perhaps others to that conclusion.

I'm fine with leaving it at this, now that I've explained my position in a little more detail.

 

Re: "typical anti-hybrid troll" Really?

Yes, it is, which is what I have said all along. That is what "speculation" means.

And unless a moderator tells me to, no, I won't "shut up".

 

Re: "typical anti-hybrid troll" Really!

I'm still waiting for your response to my refutation of your speculation. It is fine to speculate if you can at least put some coherent arguments together that aren't completely refuted by information already available a few posts above yours. You didn't do that. Hence, other's assumptions that you were simply a troll (I didn't make that assumption originally.) Considering your inaccurate profile and anti-Prius talking points, who could blame them?

I'm waiting for you to use those non-technical degrees to tell me where the errors are in my logic. If you want to call something a "butchery of logic" at least have the balls to provide a basis for the assertion. Or is this more of your "speculation?"

What really has me wondering about you is how you could make the claims you have, after having owned two yourself. I guess I'll speculate a little as well: Perhaps your posting was more introspective than we supposed...and you were incorrectly projecting your reasons for having a car you dislike onto others? Are you influenced to buy a car based on what Leonardo DiCaprio would buy? Are you only happy with a car while it is the "in" thing? If you couldn't stand the seats, the handling, or the noise, why did you buy two? I wouldn't buy a vehicle if I found it uncomfortable. Seems kind of strange for someone who appears to be in the 8% who would not buy the car again to actually have bought the car again... Some might call doing so a "butchery of logic."

 

you're the one who attacked me

Well, you're the one who attacked me by claiming I have a "lack of reading comprehension and social skills", that those "seem to be the only questionable issues here" and that I have "appear to have difficulty with the written word."

Your profile STILL says "My Car: Other Non-Hybrid and "Package: N/A". That along w/the a brief glance of the threads you responded to at the time, your totally unsubstantiated assertions and Prius bashing sure don't make it sound like you've ever owned a Prius, let alone two nor did it make it seem like you're educated on the Prius and the automobile market.

Per the Random House Unabridged dictionary entry at assertion definition |Dictionary.com, it states "a positive statement or declaration, often without support or reason: a mere assertion; an unwarranted assertion." Another that seems to fit the bill is "something declared or stated positively, often with no support or attempt at proof."

It's just absolutely bizarro to claim that Shawn's post is a "butchery of logic."

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