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Apple Ruins Microsoft's New Ad Campaign

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by boulder_bum, Oct 20, 2008.

  1. Scummer

    Scummer Eh?

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    The problem with Compiz of course is the lacking 3D driver support in X11 for many graphic cards. So far only nvidia has made some progress while ATI/AMD slowly catching up.

    Of course, the nvidia X11 driver is closed source, so that inherently sucks when you want to learn and tweak your own setup.

    Also the lacking mpeg4 acceleration is driving me nuts trying to watch 1080p material on my mythtv box.
     
  2. boulder_bum

    boulder_bum Senior Member

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    Yahoo! is a becoming a relic of the past (like AOL) and MySpace used to run on ColdFustion but ran into scalability problems so they transitioned to ASP.NET. Google and Google-owned YouTube are notable exceptions, however, though they're also Microsoft competitors so it's understandable.

    That said, compare Google's Linux-based Android to Apple's OS X Mobile (iPhone) operatings systems. Apple wins there because of a better understanding of usability, style and nuance of media managment. (I will say, Google's paid employees did a pretty good job of innovating on Linux, however).

    Nope. Other way around.

    I think you're getting "servers" confused with "web servers" here. Linux, for example, is more awkward when using Active Directory, it couldn't reliably use the NTFS file format for a long while (I'm not sure if that's still the case), NTLM2 authentication wasn't supported at first, I don't believe ClickOnce deployment is supported on Linux, etc.

    I'm not saying integration is impossible, but I do think that the my statement that "servers work best with similarly platformed clients" is true.

    For the web, I think you're mostly right, but then MobileMe didn't fully support IE7 at first (maybe still?). You still run into compatibility problems on the web if you're not careful.
     
  3. boulder_bum

    boulder_bum Senior Member

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    I'd never seen Compiz before. I must admit, looking at YouTube, it seems pretty impressive.

    I'd have to use it before I pass judgement on its ease of use, though. I've found that a lot of times Linux meets a requirement in the abstract idea of it, but ends up being relatively more difficult to use nonetheless.

    IDE's spring to mind. Technically, you have some open-source alternatives for Linux, but Compare Visual Studio with GNU C++ or even Eclipse.

    Web services, documentation and general ease of use are far better in .NET IMO. I don't have to mount disks or screw with a lot of low-level options. I just point at a web service URL and away I go with my proxies.

    See that's sort of the thing. I don't wish. I just want it to work attractively and easily. The less configuration and tweaking I have to do, the better.

    This is an interesting case in point. Let me contrast how I set up my home theater.

    1. I installed iTunes on my computer.
    2. I connected an Apple TV to my television.
    3. I was done.

    That's a (slight) oversimplification, but until Linux can reduce the amount of tweaking you have to do for tasks down to near zero, I don't think it will really catch on with mainstream users.

    Then again, Linux's popularity is driven by all the tweakers who love spending time seeking out the latest plug-ins, distros, and utilities so it's almost a competing interest.
     
  4. DaveinOlyWA

    DaveinOlyWA 3rd Time was Solariffic!!

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    in this long sordid user-biased thread, this statement really sums it up.

    it really boils down to a basic question...would you like your OS options made for you? (MS)

    or would you rather make those decisions on your own? (Linux)

    now, until someone can come up with a clear information and install system that is able to explain at the basic level of understanding what each option will allow your computer to do, or not do, and do it quickly and simply, MS will always be on top because it allow lazy users to get what they want at a severe cost of

    1)loss of privacy
    2) loss of understanding and control
    3) loss of hardware capability and speed

    as daniel has stated, Linux requires much more than a basic understanding of how computers work...

    now for all you guys that use Linux, you can dispute this statement all you want, but the facts are, you are so far above basic understanding of computers that you can no longer define "user friendly" on a basic level.

    i talk to people who cant even understand the basic concept of "cut and paste"... they will NEVER NEVER NEVER use Linux...and i can tell you from daily , 40 hours a week experience, that they far far far outnumber any other segment of the computer industry....

    couple that with kids under the age of 25, a good 25% of which can not read at a high enough level to understand basic instructions....

    now it could be me simply not doing my job well enough...but since we are rated where i work, and i rate in the top 20 (actually being modest here) i find that to probably not be the case.

    there has been great advances in search capabilities from Google simply because 90% of people today could not effectively search using boolean methods and that is THE SOLE REASON WHY GOOGLE HAS BECOME SO BIG... Google understood the interface was the most important (as has all software developers... in this battle, MS is only beating Linux...) and has done the best job so far...albeit, they dont provide as complicated a system as Apple or MS.

    to be honest with ya, we need another major player in the OS world and i sincerely hope it Google
     
  5. Scummer

    Scummer Eh?

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    The thing with AppleTV is, it can't do much.
    I use mythtv as
    a.) DVD iso storage. Drop in DVD, rip it, put DVD away, watch from HD
    b.) HDTV over antenna. DVB-T pci card. Antenna on roof.
    c.) Watch satellite TV. DVB-S pci card. Satellite dish on roof. Watch sat TV
    d.) Music storage. Takes mp3's, WMA, AAC and other music formats
    e.) Picture storage. Show pics on your 60" big screen to the family :)
    f.) Programs can be set to record through a web interface
    g.) Burn shows or recorded programs on DVD

    and much much more

    That's the difference between canned, ready made, easy to install solutions and mostly open-source, linux based applications.

    I've looked at Apple-TV before as well, but the functions were just too limited.

    Thomas
     
  6. Jonnycat26

    Jonnycat26 New Member

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    Most large companies that I've worked for, and I've worked for more than a few, usually use Unix backends to support their Windows front ends. Microsoft's pricing policies usually pushes them in that direction, NTLM2 or no...

    And, from what I see and hear from the consultants, having Java skills is more important than having .NET skills. .NET is considered a bit of a lost cause for anything other than lightweight web development.
     
  7. Godiva

    Godiva AmeriKan Citizen

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    Cute commercial.

    I have to wonder if there are some GM execs working for Microsoft.
     
  8. boulder_bum

    boulder_bum Senior Member

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    Asking Java guys about .NET is like asking a McCain supporter about the virtues of Obama.

    Look at it this way: I already gave the statistic how .NET has double the market share of Java in the enterprise, but also consider that MySpace is running on ASP.NET and was when it was the most trafficked site on the internet, most of EBay's servers ran on IIS last I checked (despite the "Java" note on the site) as does MSN, JPMorgan Chase Bank, Dell, etc.

    Java has its place, but in the real world .NET typically delivers better performance with fewer lines of code.
     
  9. TJandGENESIS

    TJandGENESIS Are We Having Fun Yet?

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    I think it will catch on. In fact, look at the iPhone as an early showcase for this sort of program; touch screen, move this and that with your finger. It's just a matter of time for Surface.

    Hey, it's already on CSI: MIAMI, so you know, how far away could it really be?

    ;)
     
  10. TimBikes

    TimBikes New Member

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    Pretty bold of Apple to release an ad like this given their Leopard blue screens and the slew of other problems with OS-X that they've had to correct with their latest bug fix.

    Apple is now distributing the latest upgrade to Mac OS X, v10.5.5, through Software Update. The patch addresses a considerable number of aspects in the operating system, such as Mail, MobileMe and Address Book, as well as some "general" concerns, according to Apple's support notes. Some of these include Spotlight indexing, the reliability of iPhone sync with both iCal and Address Book, and problems with Macs powering on involuntarily at the same time every day. The update is sized anywhere between 136 and 353MB, depending on the number of minor patches already installed. iCal has been updated to better deal with repeating events, and fix a number of other bugs, such as problems with syncing published calendars, and maintaining access to the "Refresh All" button. Address Book has been tweaked for issues with Smart Groups and printing multi-page cards, and MobileMe has had reliability enhanced for sync and the Back to My Mac feature.

    Disk Utility should be more reliable when rebuilding a software mirror RAID volume, and Directory Utility has had server status improved. Mail updates are numerous, incorporating answers to problems like SMTP settings for services like AIM and Road Runner, RSS feeds disappearing from the sidebar, and IMAP messages bogging down performance.

    Apple has lastly made adjustments to Time Machine, improving reliability with Time Capsule, and smoothing out the performance of both initial and ongoing backups. Bad warnings about drives lacking space have been eliminated,
    and iPhone backups are now saved alongside other items.

    Silly me- I thought macs "just worked". :p
     
  11. boulder_bum

    boulder_bum Senior Member

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    Well, I think the Apple TV is designed with a purpose which is on-demand content, be it from your iTunes music library, YouTube, Video Podcasts, Flickr or the direct from the iTunes store.

    Does MythTV do on-demand rentals from the internet?

    Personally, I'm not sure I'd be into DVR cababilities for the Apple TV as they require effort to search, schedule and wait for content, which I think is one step behind the "on demand" model (though not wanting to pay $1.99 for a TV show is understandable).

    I think the other big advantage of Apple TV is that it fits nicely into the ecosystem. The movies and TV shows I play on the Apple TV can be easily synched offline with an iPod/iPhone so you can take them with you on the commute to work or the airplane to grandma's house.

    Plus, compare the smoothness of the UI:



    [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i-EVW7tmhI]YouTube - Apple TV Guided Tour[/ame]

    PS - I've heard of people hacking the Apple TV to run MythTV, though that seems like too much work to me.

    Don't get me wrong, I think a lot of the innovations displayed in surface will make it to the real-world. I remember seeing surface and thinking multi-touch would be a great interface for mobile devices before I saw it on the iPhone (where it works beautifully), but I don't think there will be a "Surface" table in every household just so they can transfer photos between devices.

    That said, I guess a lot of the "Windows 7" changes revolve around incorporating multi-touch into the OS in a Surface-like way.

    It will be awesome for working with photos and maps, I think.
     
  12. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    I was out of town for a couple of days and have fallen behind on this thread. Let me see if I can catch up all at once:

    I won't argue your basic point. Linux has always been attractive to computer nerds, and as such, has been the poster child for the phrase "Some assembly required." Where I do take exception is that you are painting all Linux distributions with the same brush. Linux has come a long, long way in terms of ease of use. Ease of installation and ease of use by the common computer user is the central theme of Ubuntu.

    Ubuntu is every bit as easy to use as Windows or Mac OS, and is easier to install than either. Where Windows and Mac OS have an advantage is that they come pre-installed on your computer, so everything works right out of the box, at least initially. Apple takes this a step further by rigidly controlling the hardware as well, which helps eliminate the incompatibility problems that plague the computer industry.

    At the present time, Ubuntu has to be installed, since it doesn't ship on new hardware. The installation works the same way as any Windows program: you pop in the CD and watch it do its thing. If you just want to test drive it, you can run Ubuntu directly from the CD or a memory stick without having to do an installation. If you want to dual boot, the installer will do that for you too.

    My 86 year old mother uses Ubuntu without any trouble at all, and I wouldn't classify her as a computer nerd. Like many (most) computer users, she does four things with her computer: 1) Surf the Web; 2) Read and write email; 3) Do light word processing, and 4) Play solitare. OpenOffice and Firefox are all she needs. The standard installation of Ubuntu installed every driver and piece of software that she needs for all of her daily computing.

    Here is another real world example: My son teaches inner city fourth and fifth graders in downtown Detroit at a charter school. His students, like kids everywhere, love to play with computers but are not sophisticated comptuer users. His classroom contains a combination of Mac computers supplied by the school and Edubuntu (the educational distrobution of Ubuntu) running on ancient hardware that he collected. His students move freely between the machines without a problem. The look and feel of the user interface is so similar that the students are unaware of the difference. They do favor the Edubuntu machines, mostly because of the large collection of educational games that come with the distribution. My son prefers the Edubuntu machines because they are easier to set up and maintain, and are less likely to crash.

    I could go on with point by point comparisions and real world examples, but I'm starting to obscure my message. This is the one point I want to make: Not all Linux users are nerds and not all Linux distributions are targeted at nerds. This is a common misconception, and it used to be true. Saying Linux is too complex for a common user is like saying "I don't own an automobile. I had a model T once, and automobiles are just too hard to use." Time and technology march on. The Prius is pretty easy to use, and so are the newer distributions of Linux.

    Tom
     
  13. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    Visual Studio is one of Microsoft's best achievements. Its design and layout have become the defacto standard for almost all IDEs. Obviously Microsoft needed to do a lot of internal development, and they had boatloads of cash to throw at the problem. Thankfully, all of us programmers get to benefit from Microsoft's internal work.

    There are several good examples of proprietary IDEs. Microchip's MPLAB comes to mind. Most of these appear to have borrowed heavily from Visual Studio.

    Sadly, the open source world seems to be lacking when it comes to good development environments. There are plenty of them, and several are very capable, but all are limited, hard to use, or otherwise constrained when compared to Visual Studio. I have been writing in Python recently, and I feel like I am using stone tools.

    Tom
     
  14. Scummer

    Scummer Eh?

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    vim FTW! :D
     
  15. eagle33199

    eagle33199 Platinum Member

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    That's interesting... I was just talking with one of my competitors this past weekend, and he said the exact opposite. They had previously been running on Microsoft SQL Server, but switched over to Oracle for performance reasons earlier this year. Now that they eliminated that bottleneck, they're seeing how bad their .NET environment is running and are placing under serious consideration a complete rewrite of their code into Java.

    As a comparison, similar functionality between our two sites has clearly been demonstrated to take up to 5 times longer on their site than ours. Now, I know we can't judge the quality of their code versus ours, but i have to believe the two are at least close to each other, given the number of people who bounce between the two companies.
     
  16. boulder_bum

    boulder_bum Senior Member

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    I think you'd be right to suspect the code, not the technology. If you look past anecdotes of how one shop's coders botched an application to larger trends and more objective testing, you'll see that .NET wins out in the performance department.

    Now, I've seen some benchmarks try to do things like compare how fast the two technologies contatinate strings a billion times in a second where Java wins, but when you look at real-world applications, .NET tends to trounce Java in a big way.

    The famous case study which was run by a Java company, but became controversial because of its findings is the "Pet Shop" example.

    Basically, there was a "Pet Shop" application written as a showcase of best practices for Java development and when .NET first came out, it was rewritten for the platform. The findings? The .NET version ran 28x faster (not a typo, that's 28x faster) and required 1/4 the amount of code.

    This sent the Java community into a tizzy and there were all sorts of claims about how the Java example wasn't built for performance, and so the "Pet Shop" application was rewritten to make the playing field a little more level. Fair enough, but the last laugh came when the .NET app still ran 10x faster and still required 1/4 of the code!

    You can read about it here:
    .NET vs. Oracle's Java PetShop Benchmark Round III

    I think a lot of people have come to terms with the performance hit you get with Java, they just think its other benefits (like not being stuck on the Microsoft platform) outweigh the weakness.
     
  17. eagle33199

    eagle33199 Platinum Member

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    You do realize that example is from 2002... a hell of a lot has changed since then. Heck, just in the past few years things have gotten a whole lot simpler for Java server development. Just a few weeks ago a wrote a sample web app to show some kids i mentor how it's supposed to be done - somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 lines of code (not counting HTML crap) for a full vertical slice fetching from the database. I don't think you can really get much better than that.

    Unfortunately, i haven't been able to find any modern day benchmark tests comparing .NET and Java... it'd be awesome if you knew of one :)
     
  18. Jonnycat26

    Jonnycat26 New Member

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    Ebay runs on Solaris servers, and they most definitely use Java for all of their web and application logic. Trust me on this one.

    You see IIS because, for some very odd reason, they have an IIS based proxy.
     
  19. boulder_bum

    boulder_bum Senior Member

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    I'll trust you on that (I only have limited knowledge of their network based on hearsay), though the point remains: some of the internet's biggest websites from social networks, to banks, to portals, to e-commerce run on ASP.NET.

    It's not realistic to say ASP.NET is a technology for "simple web development".

    Point taken. A lot can happen in five years, especially in the tech sector. Both platforms have probably been optimized since then.

    The reason I cited the example is because I remembered it from when it happened and, like you, I couldn't find anything more recent. :D

    Something I will say, however, is that I think one of the reasons Microsoft tended to perform better back in 2002/2003 is because everything could be optimized for the platform, whereas the portability goal of Java somewhat hindered such efforts. The performance varied from one vendor's Java VM to another, also.

    I'd be curious to see some real-world optimized application comparisons for the latest versions of .NET/Java, but I suspect that Java still will not have completely made up the deficit. 'Just my gut feeling, there.
     
  20. Jonnycat26

    Jonnycat26 New Member

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    Yes, I know myspace runs it... I'm sure that's why 9 times out of 14 you get a "page can not be displayed" when you try to pull up someone's profile. :)