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Canada in Crisis?

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by jayman, Dec 3, 2008.

  1. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    Oh boy, I sure hope you're wrong about that
     
  2. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    Did anybody watch the speech that Harper and Dion gave last night?

    After Harper raced through it, and they cut back to the network anchors, everybody has sort of a Deer In The Headlights look. I thought to myself: "Wth was that? Hell, they deserve to be booted out"

    Then after waiting, and waiting, and waiting ... and waiting, Dion's little speech *finally* came on. I didn't think it would be possible to do any worse than Harper, but I clearly underestimated the situation

    I mean, holy s***, did Dion record it himself with a webcam? A *cheap* webcam?? Not only did I feel sorry for the fellow, I just about had to turn it off, the segment was so embarrassing to watch

    I had CTV Newsnet on, and when they cut back to Duffy, he looked dumbfounded. For a big guy like him, that's a rare facial expression.

    I have to think that this morning, when Governor General Jean agreed to prorogue with apparently no strings attached, that embarrassing and campy video from Dion had a lot to do with it

    Quite honestly, I fully expected Jean to tell Harper to eff off, and next Monday turn the reins over to the Coalition.
     
  3. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    I've received a few PM's - oddly enough not from any Canadians - about what was so disturbing about this Coalition agreement. Well, everybody at the office read it once it was available for download, so did I. There was one sneaky little sentence that struck fear in most of us in the West

    You can download it from CBC:

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/pdf/081201_Accord_en.pdf

    Go to Article 3, their "No Surprises" claim. The last sentence: "Furthermore, upon its formation, the government will put in place a permanent consultation mechanism with the Bloc Quebecois."

    Um .... surprise!

    Some folks have called Dion, who was one of the architects of The Clarity Act, a "traitor" for giving a separatist party this type of inside power. Nobody knows what it really means, does that mean the BQ can simply hold their hand out for money to agree to support a bill, or does it mean the BQ can actually dictate and draft bills?

    Well, it's all academic now. The Governor General agreed to Prorogue the Parliament until the budget speech towards the end of January. That means Parliament is - essentially - in recess until then.

    Of course, if the Coalition remains strong, it would be easy for them to force a non-confidence on the budget. The Governor General would then have to decide what to do: have another election, or put in place the Coalition

    I think she should try another option: invite Harper, Dion, Layton, and Duceppe to her office. Have them sit in chairs. Then whip out an aluminum baseball bat, smack each of them right on the head, all while screaming:

    "will you four cut this s*** out, pull your head's out of your asses, and just run the f****** country! CAH-rist! Now get the f*** out of my office!"

    I bet she could get a *lot* done if she would only do that. Comments?
     
  4. Shawn

    Shawn New Member

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    Harper has done an about face today with much more talk about concensus and listening to the other parties. Less than 12 hours ago he was ranting about them and about the role of the BQ. He was actually contributing to a division in the country by his unwillingness to recognize the right of all Quebec citizens to have their voices heard including those who elected BQ members.
    I'm pleased that he has a chance, because the Governor General prorogued Parliament, to put forth a clear position on the economy through a budget motion in January. I doubt that the Liberal, NDP or BQ are going to suddenly work happily with Harper. At least Canadians will be able to reflect on options being presented and the Coalition group can try to get their own act together.
    Personally, I disliked them all so much that I voted Green! An anything but move!
     
  5. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    Good. Let's hope this embarrassing faux pas has taught him a good lesson, and maybe even some manners. As a taxpayer, I'm getting pretty sick of this horses***

    I'm also sick and tired about all this horses*** about Anglophone this, Francophone that, First Nations etc etc. We are ALL Canadians.

    Period!!

    I've never understood how, in this country, we can be bi-lingual in every province and territory, *except* Quebec. Or is it no longer illegal to display English signs unless they are really teeny-tiny?

    Quite frankly, I could give one s*** if somebody is from Nunavut, PEI, Quebec, Saskatchewan, or BC, or what color or ethnicity they are, in my eye, they are ALL Canadian!

    This is one of my more extreme pet peeves

    As far as language, why not also include Ojibway and Inuktitut? Our Natives have faced enough discrimination over the past two centuries, now we have to force a language on them??

    As far as recognizing the "right" of folks in Quebec, in my eye, they should have exactly the same rights as every other Canadian. Nothing more, nothing less

    We already have the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. We already have gay marriage. This country has proven to the entire f****** world it can get its s*** together, but then we have a dog and pony show like this to throw a monkey wrench into things

    I sincerely wish Gov Gen Jean would implement my idea. I bet once she pounded some sense into all four of them, things would move *very* quickly.

    I only wish more Canadians were as articulate and involved in thinking about politics as you obviously are

    Guess what? I really respect you for that. Really, really. I'm pretty sure I would happily buy you a drink, and we could piss and moan about retarded politicians all evening. Even though I personally couldn't click with the Greens, I think they offer a viable alternative.

    Just enough of an alternative to get the other parties heads out of their asses and think about bigger issues than daily politics. In the end we're better off for it
     
  6. Fibb222

    Fibb222 New Member

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    Just for the record, I think the Green Party has the best policies overall. By 2005 I despised the corrupt Martin/Chretein Liberals - was really glad they finally got voted out.

    In 2006 I had high hopes for the Harper government but they have totally let us down.

    I think the Governor General blew it this morning, not letting the coalition get on with the business of shoring up the economy and enacting a seriously sustainable energy plan.

    I think Dion has the correct priorities and plan for the country. His commitment towards making the country stronger and greener is genuine and I trust him. I can't say that of any other leader except Elizabeth May.
     
  7. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

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    The coalition may well dissolve over the break, which is likely what our GG and PM are hoping for. Calling an election is a risky move that could result in a huge protest vote for the Greens, or even the Rhinoceros if they could get their party status back. I usually vote Green, but I'd vote Rhino again in utter disgust with the whole political process.

    As for giving a few 'leaders' a smack upside the head, that's a great idea, Jay.
     
  8. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    Lot's of talk, but little action

    I suspect a lot of that had to do with the downright embarrassing video Dion put out the night before

    As far as "shoring up" the economy, I'm not too sure what can be done at this point. I frequently travel overseas on business, so trust me on this: the entire world is now having a major economic s***, almost diarrheal in intensity.

    I'm not for throwing money without a plan. Witness how "well" this bailout plan has worked in the United States for the banking sector. Seems I recall AIG having quite a lavish Executive retreat, among other boners.

    Much like how the proposed Big Three bailout will not work. We are entering a crippling severe global recession, hell, maybe even a depression. What use will it be to keep building vehicles if nobody is buying them? At what point do you create a Perpetual Motion machine?

    That is, at what point do you just throw up your hands, build a giant conveyor belt, and have the freshly assembled vehicles sent directly into the smelter, turned back into raw steel, and then send the raw steel back to the factory to turn back into cars?

    I take heart that the UN's OECD and the IMF praise how Canada runs her economy and banking system. I'm pretty sure I posted the links here.

    Well, sorry to say, I don't.

    Under Chretien, he was a committed unifier, intent on keeping Canada together. His work on The Clarity Act is one example of that.

    While he was under Chretien and Martin, he could have used his considerable influence to rapidly push a Green agenda. As an example, why was Canada so late to emissions controls for automobiles? Why doesn't Canada have mandatory California emissions, with yearly I/M checks required for the tags?

    I do think he would like to have Canada greener, but again, based on his past record, little was done. Eg: CO2 emissions increased after Kyoto was signed, this is public domain from StatsCan

    One thing with us entering a crippling global recession, our CO2 emissions will automatically plummet. If oil happens to collapse further due to the recession, say down to $20 a barrel, you will see Ft Mac turn into a ghost town.

    Here is how I would change things:

    Cut out all this divisive Anglophone this, Francophone that, First Nations etc. We're all Canadians. We're all equal. Deal with it

    Institute mandatory California emissions for all new vehicles, along with I/M checks

    Pass something similar to the American CERCLA and SARA. Look at the mess in Sarnia, the uranium tailings in northern Saskatchewan, etc. That should be an embarrrassment to every Canadian, but unless you frequent a site like the Canadian Coalition for Nuclear Responsibility, you'd never know about it

    The Canadian Coalition for Nuclear Responsibility

    What else?

    Fund mass transit, residential pv, retrofit energy efficient upgrades, etc etc etc
     
  9. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    The knives are already out just because of that faux pas last night. I mean, cah-rist, it was *painful* to watch Dion.

    I see nothing wrong with that

    I expect a small royalty. I'm not greedy, but i would still like to claim the "look and feel" of our hot Governor General whipping out an aluminum baseball bat, and tuning up those four.
     
  10. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

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    I was thinking the risk of calling an election was to the sitting government, not necessarily the country. I don't see anything wrong with a Green majority, either, though realistically they're not ready to govern.
     
  11. thepolarcrew

    thepolarcrew Senior Member

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    Well Jayman What do you think of this? This would go over well in the states.

    Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper has won a bid to suspend parliament, blocking an opposition attempt to topple his minority government.

    So it's a first?
    The governor general agreed to Mr Harper's request, unprecedented in the country, after talks.(not as familiar with the Canadian Gov as I am with US)

    BBC NEWS | Americas | Canada halts parliament amid row
     
  12. Jonnycat26

    Jonnycat26 New Member

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    You can't really draw a parallel to this and the government in the states. They're two different beasts.
     
  13. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    I doubt a "prorogue" could happen in the United States.

    Yes, the prorogue is probably a first for Canadian politics, but well within Parliamentary procedure. I'm pretty sure I already covered this a few posts back, but should perhaps explain in more detail how the Canadian government is organized

    Canada is a parliamentary democracy and a constitutional monarchy. Her Majesty, Queen Elizabeth II, is the head of state. Her Majesty's representative in Canada is Governor General Michaelle Jean, who, btw, is a smokin hot babe. Yowsa. Anyhoo, the Governor General is appointed, and Her Excellency was born in Port-au-Prince, Haiti, proving that Canada has now become racially and ethnically diversified

    There are ten provinces and three territories that make up Canada: British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, Manitoba, Ontario, Quebec, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, Nova Scotia, and Newfoundland plus Labrador. The three territories are Yukon, Northwest Territories, and Nunavut

    One thing fairly unique in the world, is that each Province and Territory is responsible for it's own health care system, and education. Among the complex payment methods are the so-called Transfer Payments / Equilization Payments that flow from the Federal government to the Provinces. The "have" provinces complain this is unfair, as they feel they are propping up have-not provinces

    The government consists of an unelected, appointed senate, and an elected House of Commons. Each member of the House of Commons is elected based on a simple plurality from each Electoral District. There are currently 308 seats in the House of Commons.

    The Prime Minister is *not* elected, he or she is usually the head of the party with the most votes, not necessarily the majority though

    As the Talking Heads have tried to explain, and as I have read, the Governor General had a few options to deal with this impasse. I covered them, but will do so again

    Her Excellency could have simply accepted the Coalition proposal from the Liberal and NDP parties. This has been done in Canadian history, but a long time ago: 1926 was the last time this was done, and the Coalition was short-lived.

    Oddly enough, with just the Liberal and NDP signatures, they didn't have enough votes to exceed the Conservative minority. I still don't understand how the Block Quebecois figures into this, asides from mention in Article 3 of the Coalition letter, there isn't any other description. I have posted the link to the Coalition letter in this thread

    Her Excellency could have also called another election. Since we just wrapped up a Federal election back in October, I doubt that would have been a very popular option

    Her Excellency also had the option to "prorogue" Parliament. In essence, Parliament is suspended as a "time out" to let things cool down. As Parliament was about a week away from the traditional Christmas break anyway, I guess that was her best option

    The Governor General actually does weild considerable power, but the position is usually a mystery to most Canadians. Until an impasse like this happens.
     
  14. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    Thanks for the update on parliamentary government. I feel like standing up and saying "I rise to a question of privilege."

    Tom
     
  15. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    :pound:

    Um .... denied!
     
  16. markderail

    markderail I do 45 mins @ 3200 PSI

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    Talking to fellow Canadians, POV of an English Quebecer.

    Don't get your knickers in a bunch over the Bloc. Sure they are born of the Seperatist mouvement, but that has changed after a decade.

    If the NDP had proper $$$ and representation, they could win many ridings in Quebec, both parties share similar goals - proper representation of distinct peoples.

    It's definately not a "dance with the devil" as the English networks have made it to be. The Bloc would have very little power in a Coalition Gov't - other than making sure resources are equally split.

    Harper is the idiot for not getting a proper "pulse" from the other parties and being too agressive. Ya, I didn't vote for him. I haven't liked a single thing they have done since in power - idea wise - that originated from them.

    The Conservatives would be a dead party if the Liberals hadn't gotten their hands so dirty in the past.
     
  17. JSH

    JSH Senior Member

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    Jayman,

    I have a couple of questions:

    First, as I understand it Canada has 4 major parties:
    Conservative = Conservative
    Liberal = Liberal
    New Democrats = Leftish central
    Bloc Québécois = Quebec independence

    In the 2008 elections the results were as follows:
    Conservatives: 143 (46.2%)
    Liberal: 77 (25%)
    New Democrats: 37 (12%)
    Bloc Québécois: 49 (15.9%)
    Other: 2 (0.6%)

    Now my understanding of parliamentary systems is that once the election results are in; the parties haggle in order to try to form a majority that will elect a prime minister and lead parliament. If this doesn't happen, new elections are held until a majority coalition is formed. From that perspective I can't see how the conservatives could hope to rule without one of the other parties joining them in a majority coalition. I thought that was the entire point of a parliamentary system is to force coalitions so that a wide number of positions are heard and things are negotiated. How would the conservatives be allowed to control parliament with only 46% of the membership?

    Why is a coalition of the liberals (L), New Democrats (ND), and Bloc Québécois (BQ) such a surprise? I would expect that the L and ND would be natural collaborators and BQ's would not be in agreement with anyone. To me it would be natural for the L+ND coalition to be opposed by the C's. That would lead BQ to be the decider and each side would have to give them something in return for their support. I seems in 2008 the liberals outbid the conservatives for the separatist's BQ vote. Why is this so surprising?

    Again this from someone in the US without much knowledge of Canadian politics.

    Also why do you say the liberal parties "hate" western Canada?
     
  18. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    Maybe I imagine a simpler world, but in my ideal Canada, everybody is treated equally. We're not Anglophones, we're not Francophones, we're not even First Nations: we're CANADIANS. Every single one of us

    In the early 1990's, the NDP got control of Ontario. The train wreck they caused to the Ontario economy just about wiped them out. What I find interesting is that Bob Rae, I'd label him a "neo-NDP" - had some pretty interesting things to say about the other left-leaning NDP'ers

    When Bob Rae "converted" to the Liberal Party, there was a clear distinction between his left-leaning Liberal ideology, and the left-leaning NDP ideology.
     
  19. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    Um ... no.

    If a single party can get enough votes to form an outright majority, then they are the government, period. Elections are required every five years, but the ruling party can "drop a writ" and call an election earlier.

    This is one flaw in our system. It allows a party to follow polling trends, to have a more favorable election. Both the Liberals and Conservatives have done this stunt

    In the case of our government under Harper, it has been a Minority government. That is, even though the party didn't get enough votes to form an outright majority, they got more than the other parties. In this situation, a Minority government is always subject to a Non Confidence vote

    Typically, a non confidence vote is a major item, like a Budget vote. It's essential for a minority government to work together with other parties to ensure they are not defeated in a non confidence vote

    Perpetual elections are highly unlikely. Even run-off elections don't happen that often. I wonder if this country will ever see another clear majority government ever again.

    We have so much dilution now with various political parties, even outright joke parties like The Marijuana Party, that it's hard for a single party to reach a clear consensus with most Canadians. This is also reflected in our low voter turnout: I would much prefer a law requiring people to vote, like Australia does

    No, it is not. Especially in the case of an outright majority government, there is no need for a coalition

    They formed a Minority government

    Technically, the way the Coalition Letter is worded, it is a Liberal/NDP Coalition

    There are significant ideological differences between the New Democratic Party and the Liberal Party. As an example, consider Bob Rae. He was Premier of Ontario from 1990-1995, when the NDP were all but swept aside due to very poor economic decisions.

    He was considered a "Neo NDP" by many of the Socialist left-leaning NDP members. In 2006, Rae joined the Liberal Party. He has been publically critical of the left-leaning tendencies of the NDP

    There is a lot of bad blood between the Liberals and the NDP. So I was quite surprised to hear of this proposed Coalition

    See above

    That dates back to Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau, when in 1980 he tried to push through the National Energy Program. The most contentious part of the NEP was the Petroleum Gas Revenue Tax, which was to tax oil producers in Alberta to subsidize oil and gas costs in Ontario

    Keep in mind that, at that time, the National Energy Board still set oil and gas prices in Canada. Many thought this contributed to the high budget deficit, and lack of revenue from Canada's substantial energy resources

    There was a lot of fallout from the NEP, which actually was implemented for a few years. It contributed substantially to the federal budget deficit. Due to the high taxation imposed on energy producers in Western Canada, there was a distinct lack of interest in pursuing any energy projects.

    One goal of the NEP was to promote energy independance. But due to the high taxation imposed on the energy sector, just the opposite happened. I have already mentioned how high the extraction costs are here

    There was such anger in Western provinces, especially Alberta, that bumper stickers became pretty nasty: "Let the Eastern Bastards Freeze in the Dark," and "Please God let there be another oil boom, I promise not to piss it away this time"

    The Alberta Premier, Lougheed, stood up to Trudeau to no longer cap oil prices, and to cut out the excessive taxation on oil production. It was estimated by many that the total cost to the Alberta economy ranged from as low as $50 billion to as high as $100 billion.

    I would say the mistrust of the Federal government isn't as bad in Manitoba as it is in Alberta. At the same time, there is still a lot of simmering discontent aimed at what many perceive to be the architect of Western mistrust: the Liberal Party of Canada
     
  20. Jonnycat26

    Jonnycat26 New Member

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    Here's a simplistic, but kind of amusing, primer to the political parties and parlimentary system in Canada:

    Dear neighbour, about what's going on in Canada