China's first PHEV went on sale this morning.

Here's a little video clip of a test drive by a Business Week correspondent

China's First Plug-In Hybrid Car Rolls Out - BusinessWeek

 

The Business Week article says the gasoline model of the same F3 car starts at $7500. So with the PHEV they are asking people to pay over two and a half times as much for what *looks like* the same thing. While I am 100% behind PHEVs and electric cars, you have to wonder whether your average Chinese with $22k to spend on a car will buy one. I fear they'd prefer a higher status imported car. I seem to remember tv reports showing massive gas lines in China though, so avoiding them may give the PHEV F3 a big appeal.

As an aside, $7.5k for a proto-Corolla suggests that the Chinese automakers are coming regardless of whether or not they build EVs.

 

$22K is more do-able in China than decades ago. It aint san pans & rikshaws they're riding around in. Fact is, China loves their 4x4's RV's, etc just like guzzlin' U.S. citizens. I look at that video 2 posts above & have mixed feelings. One, I love it, but two? It saddens me deep, that U.S. law makers & corporate heads chose to put quarterly profits ahead of the good of the country. Now, here we are with our shorts down, flappin' in the breeze. How embarrassing. Thanks a lot, for nothing, big 3.

 

I wonder how much Prius cost in China. I think the import tax are very high so Toyota decided to build Prius in China.

This BYD F3 DM PHEV62 may be cheaper than Prius in China. Can anyone confirm it? If it is, there is no brainer for people who lives in China.

 

I believe it is 100% of the value of the car.

Assuming the MSRP of the Prius is 23K, invoice is 20K, actual cost may be 17K. then the tax is 17K. The selling price likely be 23K +17K = 40K.
This is just an estimate. The actual cost may vary.

This is why auto makers have to build joint venture plants in China to avoid the import tax in order to complete in the market.
Of course the luxury cars are still imported.

 

Prius MSRP is starting 259,800 CNY, 38,000 USD.

Ken@Japan

 

China's vehicle import tariff is 30%.
http://www.dtm.gov.tr/dtmadmin/upload/IHR/PazaraGirisDb/abdmotorlutasitlar.pdf

Companies build joint ventures in China because it is required by Chinese law. No non-Chinese company can own more than 50% of a factory in China. Corporations would much prefer to build their factories that they own 100% China requires a joint venture for two reasons. One, it helps prop up their state owned industries. Two, it leads to knowledge transfer.

 

"knowledge transgfer". I like that.
Here's some more of that knowledge transfer.


china says the figure in the dress is a cat btw ... not a mouse. (shaking head)

 

Wow, Prius costs $16k more than the F3 DM plug-in.

 

Chinese vehicle brands such as Chana, Cherry and GWM are being offered for sale in South Africa. Recently at the Johannesburg International Motor show I was appalled at the build quality of some of these vehicles. Ripples in body panels, orange peel effect in the paint and even rust! Some chinese 4x4 vehicles were being displayed outside. There were one or two rain showers and rust was visible on the welds of the rollbar. The cabin was plasticky and smelled like a glue factory. Chinese vehicles have been heavily criticized by the South African press as being poorly built and unreliable. People joke that they don't want to drive behind a chinese car cause bits might fall off.

Yes, China has the largest manufacturing capability in the world, but they must get their quality up before I will consider buying a chinese vehicle. I'll keep a close eye on customer satisfaction levels and faults/100 units before I'll change my mind.

Made in Japan means something. It extolls quality and reliability no matter what the product.

 

Don't imagine that the Chinese can't do quality.

They already build most of the high-end computers/laptops etc bought in the Western world. Critical components of space vehicles are also outsourced to China by NASA.

They have some of the most modern factories in the world, and they are all set to do what Japan did in 15 years for their automotive manufacturing quality in less than 5.

 

A bloke here was going to start an import business importing Chinese copies of BMW. He bought in his first bike which reduced him to tears. The paint looked like it was sprayed on by someone with a mouth full of paint blowing a raspberry and the striping on the petrol tank looked like it was applied with a stick. Oh and worst of all, it had no front shock absorbers in the front forks!!

I'm

 

Yes, some very high tech components and products are made in China. However, they are not made in Chinese owned factories. These high quality products are produced in joint ventures between multi-national corporations and local Chinese companies. The Chinese provide land, cheap labor, and political connections. The multi-national provides technology and knowledge needed to manufacture these products.

The problem is that you can't take that knowledge back once you have shown someone how to do something. We are literally teaching our future competition how to compete against us. I have no doubt that Chinese companies will advance 20 years or more in technology in the next 5 years because we are actively teaching them.

My personal experience with sourcing in China is that the local Chinese-owned companies don't have the level of quality control that is required. The initial samples will be excellent but once production starts the quality falls to abysmal levels if product is even delivered. A quick flight to the Chinese plant shows that your initial samples were either cherry picked from production or hand-worked prototypes. The supplier may also simple change dimensions or materials without notification. Since the supply chain to China is about 12 weeks, you may end up with months of bad product in shipment. You then have to airship product for China or fall back on a traditional supplier. Either way, these added costs more than offset potential savings.

The last two companies that I worked with refused to work directly with Chinese companies. Instead we would work with a established supplier that had moved production to China and had people on site to insure quality and delivery.

 

We'll see the crash testing results and consumer report score after introduction of the F3DM in the US.

Ken@Japan

 

The Chinese can produce quality products are those manufactured to the US companies' rigid quality specifications and requirements. If the US company does not do compliant testing regularly, the quality will fall through the crack, like the lead paint toys.

Domestic products usually lack of quality control, like the tainted baby power.

BYD has to proved the battery must have a 10 yrs and 150,000 miles life and passes the crash test before they can sell the F3DM here.

 

Further to this discussion:

Widely-Read Financial Expert Warns Detroit "The Big Red Dragon" Is Winning the Plug-In Hybrids Race

 

there is no doubt that "quality" is not an exclusive american invention. the only real contributing factor is hunger.

how badly do they want it? well, they want it very badly. its been china's dream for decades to outdo america and they will stop at nothing to get what they want. they saw how japan and korea did it, so the steps has been pretty laid out for them and each time a country puts forth a product they learn from it. it used to be that cheap was the buzz, make it cheap enough and enough people will buy it. well, that has not proved to be effective recently. now its quality with a decent price.

the first year of the product rollout here will be critical. this will determine if it takes a decade to catch on or a few years. only time will tell. what will our answer be? will we have an answer? or will the american car market be a battle waged by overseas factions exclusively on american soil?

 

Even if the Chinese car is "crap" now by our standards, it won't stay there. They aren't stupid. They know what they'll have to do to make it in the U.S. market and they have their eye on the prize.

And if the Big 3 aren't stupid, they know this too. (I'm not saying they do, I'm just saying if they're NOT stupid. *IF* they've learned from history and the Japanese car companies. Because that cycle is going to repeat. It repeated with Korea.)

So the race is on to see who's first because first with something even approaching best is going to win the market share.

Like the Prius is now synonymous with "hybird". That's what China is looking to do for EV. (And GMs Volt isn't going to cut it as an EV.)

If *I* were one of the Big 3, I'd be looking at EV. That's the next frontier. In the meantime, I'd PAY Toyota to lease the Prius technology just so I could get something on the road with my label on it.

 

We're talking a desperate, last ditch, leap-frog the competition, save the
company, work force, and economy effort here.

What the heck, why not cut out the interim step... lease the BYD technology,
plug it into an existing pretty good aero body with a new front clip.

That way, Toyota and every one else would be chasing one of Chry/For/GeM!

 

BYD could shortcut a lot by doing what Rokeby suggests above, but I wonder if they're better off in the long haul by seeking out a relative unknown, like the Phoenix, which hasn't made it to market yet either. If Chrysler goes under, a joint venture between BYD and someone like Phoenix taking over their facilities might just be what really rocks the boat.