Leaked document reveals Honda Insight mpg & CO2

On the EU test cycle the Insight was rated at a combined 53 mpg U.S.

 

Those are MPG in English gallons. jprates posted the leaked document here on PriusChat yesterday. Here is a link: http://www.fr.honda.be/pdf/POD_mag_jan09FR.pdf


Here are the specs on the 2010 Honda Insight:

ICE = 87 HP / 88.5 lb-ft
Motor = 13.4 HP / 76 lb-ft
Total = 100.4 HP / 164.5 lb-ft

Fuel Consumption (EU schedule)
----------------- L/100 km -------- US MPG
Urban ----------- 4.6 --------------- 51.1
Extra Urban ---- 4.2 --------------- 56.0
Combined ------- 4.4 --------------- 53.5

(That is about the same as the current Prius (5.0/4.2/4.3 or 54.7 US MPG combined)

Remember that the EU test cycle is different than the US cycle. I expect the EPA will rate the 2010 Honda Insight at about 45 to 46 mpg combined.

 

I'll have to completely disagree. If edmunds.com is right with their pricing the Insight will start at $17,000. That is $5,000 less than the current Prius with the same MPG. We don't know pricing or fuel economy for the 2010 Prius but even if it does get the rumored increase fuel economy it will still be thousands more than the Insight. Honda is betting that there is a market for a budget hybrid even if it is only the 2nd most fuel efficient car in the US. I think they are right.

The Accord Hybrid missed the mark because it was the most expensive Accord and got the same mileage as the 4 cylinder.

 

These are in Imperial gallon which is like 1.2 times larger than US gallon.

The new Prius is rumored to have 89g/km and another version with 92g/km.

 

The lower price of the Insight II is not an advantage because it goes back to the old saying, "you get what you pay for". The next gen HSD should completely outclass IMA in every dimension (size, power, efficiency, lower emission, refinement, reliability, etc).

 

Interesting idea. Then you don't need (or want from Toyota's perspective) a 1.5 litre 3G Prius.

 

Danny can you tell us if this is your own supposition or if this is inside info that Toyota Motor USA has gave you?

I've heard something from Toyota today (unfortunately I am not authorized to go public till Geneve motor show) that render some discussions here on PC completely useless and go well-in-hand with that stance you're suggesting...

Sorry not to be able to say more right now folks, don't want to loose Toyota's trust over this.

I promise I will post here on PC about it when I have permission the second after writing about it on Prius-PT.com.

What about it Danny? Can you let us know if they are really keeping the G2 on sale for some more years?

 

I doubt Toyota will sell both the 2G and 3G Prius at the same time. Yes, they will have the typical overlap as 2G inventory is sold but I doubt Toyota will continue to sell the 2G Prius in the US for years.

If they do keep selling the 2G, I can't see Toyota dropping the price thousands from the current $22K and losing thousand per vehicle while losing billions at the corporate level. If the overall business was profitable they might just to try to keep Honda out. Instead I would expect the 3G Prius would move upmaket.

If Toyota does sell the 2G next the 3G and drops the price of the 2G to match the Insight, Honda will still sell Insights. Some people prefer Hondas to Toyotas. Why does Toyota still manage to sell Camry's when Honda has the Accord?

OK

Honda already let the engineers run wild and absolutely trounced Toyota in the mileage game. That was the first Insight and was a commercial failure. Now instead of going for the highest mileage hybrid they have target the bottom end of the market by making the least expensive hybrid.

So some of these people will cancel their orders. That is the danger of putting money down on a product based purely on speculation.

VW had 6 month waiting lists for the Jetta TDI based on rumors it would get 60 mpg highway. Instead it was EPA rated at 41 mpg. VW still sold every TDI they could make even though some people cancelled their orders.

Toyota has people on waiting lists for the 2010 Prius. Many people expect that it will get 60 mpg. Some think it is a plug-in. No one knows what it will cost. Some people on the waiting list for Prius will be disappointed and cancel their orders but I have no doubt that the 2010 Prius will still sell well.

 

Commercial failure? You mean that if you release a tiny amount of cars, and only sell them in a couple states (virtually no advertising), then dump the line even as gas is headed for $4 a gallon (when the demand would be its highest), and you build the car as a 2 seat'er (making the prospective market even smaller) and it still sells out every one made, that equates to commercial failure? Am I missing something?

 

In business success in measured in dollars. Honda readily admits that they lost money on the first generation Insight. Therefore the Insight was commercially a failure. It is a nice car though.

 

I really don't think that they have. In fact, I think that they are very close to perfect.

The best thing Honda has going with the Insight is the base price. They are starting around $18k, or $3-4k below the Prius and HCH. Or the same price as the Civic LX (probably one of the best selling trims of the Civic) and will be similarly equipped.

Yet the car will have basically the same fuel economy as the Prius and very likely nearly the same amount of room. The car will be priced very similarly to the Civic LX with the utility of a hatchback, similar interior room, but significantly better city fuel economy (40% less fuel in the city) and 20% less fuel on the highway. Why would anyone buy a Civic? (or a Corolla for that matter?)

But the car will also have much better driving dynamics (as Honda's typically do) than the current Prius so will likely appeal to those who want something a little bit fun to drive while also want something that sips fuel.

I think they will sell a ton of these.

The Prius will have to rely on it's best in class fuel economy to sell, along with the extra gadgets that will be available (where else can you get a car with solar panels on the roof to keep the interior cooler in hot weather?) Look at all the upgrades the 2010 Lexus 450h got - the Prius will likely get all of these. The exhaust heat recovery system will be like magic for improving cold start fuel economy. If it were combined with an automatic grill shutter, there would hardly be any cold start fuel economy hit at all - especially when the weather was really cold.

It will be a very good year for Hybrid sales with the new Prius, Insight and Fusion. We've pretty much reached the point where the "hybrid cost penalty" is basically negligible and the products are highly refined.

 

Oh man... clearly what Hill was proving was that your statement blaming the engineering team for the Insight failure was not fair.

It was not because of bad engineering that the Insight did not sell more, it was because of poor marketing and poor sales management.

 

I am on the waiting list for both the Insight and the 3g Prius. I definitely want the 3g, but I am waiting for the price. Does anyone have an idea what the starting price will be? I read where they have reduced in half the cost of the hybrid system.

 

I am not so fast to judge. First off, there is a lot to know about a car other than mpg. Second, even if *everything* was identical between this Honda and a competing say Prius except for cost and mpg, we still do not know how the mpg/cost ratios compare.

I can very well imagine the Insight beating the future Prius handily in a market where upfront costs are hard to amortize due to restricted credit. We Prius owners find it difficult to compliment a future car that gets *less* mpg than what we already have, but think of all the people coming from cars that averaged 25 mpg: they don't really see a difference between 50 mpg or 55, but they sure recognize thousands of dollars difference in sticker cost.

All other things being equal, a car that costs 20% more upfront but only gets 10% better fuel consumption is going to be second place in the US market for sure, and arguably even in the European market. My opinion, anyway. After all, the vast majority of the population are incapable of calculating long-term total cost of ownership and rely on places like Edmunds that bias their analysis towards upfront costs; second, emerging technologies like hybrid favor later adoption; and third, it is a lot easier for most people to cut down on personal transport 10% than it is to get their money back from the car dealer.

 

I'm not blaming Honda engineers for the failure of the Insight. The engineers designed a near perfect commuter car. The Insight should have been huge success but the buying public is too stupid to realize that a 2 seat commuter car is exactly what they need.

As an engineer you will rarely find me blaming engineers. We like to blame marketing and the bean counters.

 

it failed ya, that is not news, but why did it fail?? it was a marketing disaster... i knew a LOT of people who were interested in possibly getting one, but when there are only 400 a year to buy, good luck!!

 

too bad really - it has less powerful engine, smaller size and still cant beat 6 year old Prius... I am sure base vehicle will have less options than Prius too.